Evidence of meeting #57 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6:05 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt for a second. I don't have a lot of time, and I'll get cut off momentarily. I just need to know whether or not we can get at this number and whether or not it's as fulsome as it could be.
As best you can, can your provide committee with a number?
March 29th, 2023 / 6:05 p.m.
Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Madam Chair, given that some of the Afghans who were working with us were contracted through other nations or organizations, settling on a final number, in my view, is probably impossible.
6:05 p.m.
NDP
6:05 p.m.
Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence
Madam Chair, we'll look into whether we can provide a number, but, like the chief explained, some of those people were never under contract with anybody, but had a significant relationship with the CAF. This is part of the verification we do as well.
6:05 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Maybe, for the ones who did have a contract with DND, we can be provided with that number and in what general capacity they worked. That would be a good place to start. There are many others who were subcontracted who were not counted—that's for sure.
Daily, I receive emails. Just yesterday, I hardly knew what to do. I received an email from a former interpreter of the Canadian Armed Forces who applied back on August 26, 2021, and their application went nowhere. It was never vetted. They have sent me contracts, all that kind of stuff, and pictures of their family being beaten by the Taliban. I don't know what to do. I honestly don't. I don't know how it is that Canada had contracts with these individuals who served Canada, and we don't know who they are. We don't know where they are or how many there are.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Kwan. Your time is up. Thank you.
We will now proceed to Mr. Bezan.
Mr. Bezan, you will have five minutes for your round of questioning. You can please begin.
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to thank the minister for being here along with members of the defence team. I want to thank those who served in the Canadian Armed Forces for the work they did in getting out who they were able to. I can only describe what happened there as chaotic, dangerous and precarious. It was unbelievable watching it on TV, so for being on the ground and having to deal with it, and making sure that all those who served over there got out and helping those Afghans get out, you share our gratitude.
To follow up on what Ms. Kwan was saying, both Deputy Minister Matthews and General Eyre appeared before the special Afghanistan committee. He said at that point in time back on May 9 that 7,500 Afghans had contacted the Department of National Defence and said that they were either interpreters or had been locally engaged staff. Of that, 3,800 made the cut. What's changed in a year so that you don't have the number?
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON
I'll start. The number that we have approximately is that 3,700 were actually evacuated. We had 555 Canadian Armed Forces members across the board supporting this. We were dealing with a very tense situation on the ground, but the Canadian Armed Forces, and I'll let General Eyre speak to this, remained nimble on the ground even though the situation at the Hamid Karzai airport was extremely difficult.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Where are we at? I know at one point in time we were talking about 900 interpreters. These are people who served alongside our forces, who made sure they were aware of the dangers around them and who stood shoulder to shoulder with our soldiers.
Where are they? Are they getting here? Have you vetted them? Is IRCC inviting them? Where are we at?
6:10 p.m.
Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
The numbers have evolved since May 9, 2022. I'll turn it over to General Prévost for the details.
6:10 p.m.
Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence
Thank you, Chief.
Madam Chair, on the numbers of files that we've confirmed, for which we've established a link with the CAF, we have vetted nearly 4,500 files—4,498 to be exact. We've established a direct link. I cannot provide the member with how many of them are interpreters or contractors of any...but we've established that link for 4,500. Of those files, because the program is at 18,000 and is nearly full, we are ready to submit files as IRCC is asking for those files. Right now, we've submitted 1,850 files for IRCC to invite Afghans. Obviously you have to multiply by the number of family members, but now we're nearly close to the 18,000 Afghans to be called.
Even this morning, I provided an extra 160 files to IRCC so they can maximize the room left in the 18,000.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
You're couching this by saying there's definitely a limit that we're hitting here. Why would we leave anyone behind who served our forces, who tried to make a difference and who are now enemies of the Taliban, enemies of the state in Afghanistan. Why would we leave any of them behind?
We have the special immigration measures program, which is supposed to be a priority. I think all Canadians understand they're supposed to be a priority. Why aren't they coming?
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON
I'll say that there is every effort being made to continue to evacuate, as IRCC has said, 40,000 Afghan nationals, and that will include the reunification of former advisers who worked with National Defence in Afghanistan with members of their extended families who are outside of Canada.
As I said, National Defence is validating applications when and as requested by IRCC, and we are doing whatever we can to facilitate the evacuation and—
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Minister Anand, have you been having conversations with Minister Fraser at IRCC to ensure that he is going to prioritize those who served with our veterans, those who served with our current serving members of the Canadian Armed Forces?
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON
We are continuing to advocate for a coordinated effort by the international community, including the Government of Canada, to support all those who advised the DND-CAF but also to ensure that families are reunited. There are a number of families that need to continue to be reunited and that's really our focus.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
That's what a lot of the families here want. The families who did get out early on the first special immigration program came in 2013, 2014 and 2015. They're trying to reunite with their families. A lot of those families were also locally engaged staff or were interpreters, and they can't get out of Afghanistan.
Are we going to let the—
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
—immigration department do what is easy, or are we actually going to do the hard work to get out those who did the hard work for us?
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting. You will get time in the second round. Your time is up.
We will now proceed to Mr. Dhaliwal.
Mr. Dhaliwal, you will have five minutes. Please begin.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like to thank the honourable minister, her deputy minister, the chief of the defence staff and the director of staff for being with us today.
Minister Anand, your name, “Anand”, means bliss and happiness. It's always blissful and happy to work with you on compassionate issues such as Afghanistan. Not only do you work really hard to address those issues, but you work very passionately.
On this, Minister, you appeared at the Special Committee on Afghanistan. During your appearance, you spoke about the effects of the Canadian Armed Forces being pulled out of Afghanistan in 2014 and the impact that had on the evacuation in 2021. You mentioned that, with all things considered, we worked with our allies very efficiently, although we did not have quite the same type of presence on the ground as some of our allies.
Could you please speak about the operation and the threats to our personnel and assets on the ground and how the armed forces were able to move efficiently, with all things considered?
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON
Most definitely, and thank you for the words at the opening of your question.
Canada had no military assets on the ground at the outset, nor did it have access to a secure alternative site on the military side of the airport in Kabul, as other NATO allies did. That has to be remembered.
The effective operation of our personnel comes down to their professionalism. It comes down to their expertise. It comes down to the high level of preparation that they were able to exhibit through exercises, through training, through the rigorous planning that goes into an operation like this one.
Moreover, I would say this speaks to the strength of our alliance and the strong level of coordination among NATO allies writ large. We train with our allies regularly. We have personnel embedded with our allies, and they have personnel embedded with the Canadian Armed Forces. All of this means that the Canadian Armed Forces not only can operate effectively as a team, but they can also operate in a highly coordinated manner with our NATO allies in the most strenuous and the most dangerous of circumstances.
I will ask the chief of the defence staff if he would like to speak to the particularities of this effort with our allies.
6:15 p.m.
Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Madam Chair, I would just add one point, and that's the importance of the global network of exchange positions—liaison positions—we have that greatly facilitated this operation.
Let me give you a few examples. First, the U.S. headquarters that was overseeing this was its central command. We had a general officer who was the deputy director of operations in the headquarters—great access. In the Middle East, in the coalition air operations centre, we had a general officer who was one of the senior members in that position. General Prévost here actually did that position several years ago. He can speak to details about the coordination of the airflow that was so important.
Our joint task force impact is located in Kuwait. Having the base in Kuwait provided us a footprint on the ground, a place to be able to move Afghan refugees into. Knowing the size of that camp, it was busting at the seams when we moved way more Afghans in there than it had capacity for.
The relationships that we have with various allies, with conventional and special operations forces, greatly facilitated the work on the ground. Personal relationships matter. They take away a lot of friction that is otherwise inherent in coalition operations.
That, Madam Chair, from my perspective, is one of the very important lessons that we take away from this and that needs to be sustained.
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
Minister, from many of my constituents and during the Special Committee on Afghanistan, there were some suggestions that Canada is treating Afghan refugees and Ukrainian refugees very differently.
Could you please speak to those differences from the operational perspective of dealing with these two situations?
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Anand Liberal Oakville, ON
Thank you for the question.
I'd like to start by saying that we have seen tremendous compassion and generosity from Canadians in welcoming refugees from Afghanistan and Ukraine alike. These are individuals and families who are fleeing unimaginable circumstances and hardship, and Canadians have always welcomed and supported them. This is something that we see time and time again in this country, and it is inspiring to see and to know that Canadians will always step up when people are suffering.
As for your question, you're exactly right. These are different situations—
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting, Minister, but the time is up for Mr. Dhaliwal.
We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes.
Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, go ahead, please.