Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

The committee certainly is going to look into that, but I'd like to know whether the department has started to look into it. Do you have a plan to try to create some kind of framework to oversee these education agents?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

The answer is yes. Within Canada, the same institutions—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

That's not where the big problem is, Minister. The big problem is outside of Canada. That's where people are giving $1,500 to them to process an application. It's an incredible amount of money, and with the 2% success rate, this is a problem. Is the department going to look at establishing a framework to deal with overseas agents?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes—I got partway through my answer.

For people who are overseas, right now the opportunities that we have are to work with prospective applicants to share information to warn them about this practice. As you can appreciate, we don't have the legal authority to establish a framework to regulate a profession that is physically located in another country.

If there are strategies that come out of this study, this is one area I am watching, because some of the behaviour I see is disgusting. People don't just defraud the system; there are fraudulent letters that go out so people can then get a commission at a private college that has a much higher tuition. This is a very real problem that is impacting real people in real communities. I want to solve it, and I could use your help.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Minister. The time is up.

We will now proceed to Mr. El-Khoury.

Mr. El-Khoury, you will have five minutes for your round of questioning. You can please begin.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Minister, thank you for your generosity in agreeing to come to testify before us and to elucidate the situation for all the members of the committee.

Canada is recognized for processing any kind of file. We do not consider skin colour, religion, or country of origin. I was very pleased to hear you confirm that a few minutes ago.

First, I know that it is an absolute priority for you, as Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, to make sure that all officers in all embassies adhere to that principle. It is Canada's priority too.

Second, my colleagues have raised the issue of financial considerations in connection with applications from foreign students. One of the criteria for accepting an application for a student visa is about the financial wherewithal.

So that the matter is very clear, could you explain, once and for all, the way in which the department manages and analyzes the financial criterion and does not discriminate against students from Africa?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

First, Mr. El-Khoury, thank you for describing the reputation and attitude that I think Canadians have taken, but it's not enough that we don't see the colour of another person's skin. We need to understand, by looking at the fact that people who don't look like me are treated differently, that we have to put in unique measures to prevent that systemic discrimination.

I think it's really important that we actively consider how people who may live with different intersectionalities are discriminated against in a different way, introduce policies that overcome that discrimination, and not assume that the exact same treatment treats everyone the same, because we know it does not. That's why we have to introduce particular measures to prevent this kind of systemic discrimination in every department in the Government of Canada.

With respect to your question about the proof of funds for students who are coming from Africa, we work with provinces to identify what proof of funds they will need in order to get by within their community. We need to know that they can cover their tuition and expenses in a way that allows them to live. We don't want to create a system that promotes people to come to Canada only to see them fail when they get here.

The methods we use vary by country, based sometimes on the relationship we have with financial institutions in those countries. We've seen massive success with the student direct stream, because it allows for quicker and more accurate verifying of the financial capacity of students who are coming here. Those who can meet those eligibility criteria have their applications approved more quickly.

Partnering with financial institutions in countries where we don't have as strong a relationship.... It can significantly delay the process of application and lead to a higher refusal rate if we don't have certainty that people have the means to succeed once they land in Canada.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Minister, do you believe that the number of allowable work hours for foreign students should be increased? How could we balance those work hours with their needs, and not have them work more in order to earn more money?

I can tell you that I personally knew students in that situation when I was at university. I had some close friends in the same faculty. They began to neglect their studies as soon as they began to earn more money.

If, at the committee's suggestion, you decide to increase the number of allowable work hours for foreign students, will you take that into consideration?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

This is really important. I'm glad you brought your personal experience to bear. I think it illustrates the question that I wrestle with every day on this particular issue.

The purpose of a study permit is to bring people who want to study at a legitimate learning institution so that they can develop their skills and potentially even apply to become a permanent resident subsequently. If we increase or remove the cap on hours altogether through a study permit, I expect that we would see a lot of people then try to come in not for the purpose of studying but for the purpose of working. We have other immigration streams that are designed specifically to allow for people to come here to work.

I do think that because of the urgent nature of dealing with the labour shortage, we need to look at all options to get people to work in the short term, but I think we have to maintain our focus to ensure that whatever we do on the limit of hours worked, it's to promote that person's ability to gain a quality education in Canada so that we can protect the integrity of the international student program. In particular, I have concerns on work-integrated learning opportunities—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry, Minister. I have to interrupt.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm being cut off, but you can tell this is an issue I have a lot to say about.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, please go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Most witnesses and most officials from higher education institutions have confirmed to us that, if a foreign student's visa is refused after they paid their university tuition, it is impossible for them to have those tuition fees reimbursed.

Do you agree with that type of practice, Mr. Minister?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

In the vast majority of instances, they don't need to pay their tuition before they're able to come here to study. There was a unique situation during the pandemic where people were allowed to begin their studies overseas because of some of the challenges around travel. I want to make sure we protect students' interests and don't start collecting money from people who don't get to study. I think if you have examples—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Because IRCC takes too long, those students begin their studies before they find out whether they are accepted or not. If the department refuses their study permits, they are not reimbursed.

This is a problem. The universities are collecting the money but the students are not getting their study permits.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

If the issue is about delays in processing, we bent over backwards last year as a department and got 99% of the study permit applications processed on time to allow people to study. We put some of that $85 million I've referred to towards expediting study permits so students can get here, to prevent this kind of issue from ever coming up. To the extent that there are problems in the system with specific rules that we need to change, I'd be interested if the committee could point them out in their report.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Earlier, you mentioned the target of 4.4% for French-speaking immigrants to be admitted to Canada. Today, I met with officials from the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, the FCFA. They told me that the target has never been achieved since it was set in 2003.

Can you explain how you will manage to hit a target that has never been hit in 20 years?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Sure. Look, certain things have been done around the express entry system to increase the points you get if you can speak French or are a francophone.

I feel that the Express Entry system can be improved in numerous ways, particularly by making it more flexible.

Right now there are approximately 26,000 francophones in the inventory in our system. If we create flexibility, boost settlement support services in francophone communities, and have the flexibility that would allow us to specifically increase that, I would treat 4.4% not as the ceiling but as the basement that we should achieve, so we can continue to increase the number—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, we have to aim higher than that, because—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, but time is up.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you have two and a half minutes. Please go ahead.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I want to quickly go back to the issue of dual intent. The minister said he's looking into that. What specific measures is he considering to address the dual intent concerns?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

We have some policy work to do to identify the right solution going forward, and we are considering working with provinces to identify students whom they may wish to have stay. Again, if we look at flexibility in the express entry system for people who are studying now and whom we could have come here, I do have some concerns and some issues that I have not yet solved. For students who may need to come to study, we need to prevent a lot of students coming with the purpose of staying permanently by claiming asylum, for example, when we have different streams for people who are coming for purposes other than studying.

So we do have some policy work to do to solve this problem. That policy work is not yet done, but it's something we're working on now.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

When does the minister expect that the work will be completed? Will he share with the committee the information on what he's looking at and what some of those difficulties are?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I don't have a date for an announcement scheduled or anything like that, because I don't want to presuppose the process when I haven't actually conducted the full-throated consultation that is necessary to do something like this.

It's a mandate letter commitment for me to establish a pipeline to permanent residency for international students. The particular question of dual intent is going to be a part of it, but I don't want to presuppose what I'm going to hear from the consultation I'm going to have to conduct before I've had the opportunity to talk to stakeholder organizations.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

The minister just said that he has identified some concerns that he has not yet resolved. I am wondering if he can share that information, but it doesn't sound as though he's going to. Perhaps he will share that with stakeholders.

Let me ask the minister this question. To ensure that this Chinook tool is fair, will the minister commit to doing an independent assessment of it?