Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Marian Campbell Jarvis]

One of the aspects that I would like—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Campbell. The time is up for Mr. Ali. We will have to proceed to our next member. Maybe in the second round someone will have the opportunity to ask the question again.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you will have six minutes for your round of questioning.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Once more, let me welcome the wonderful witnesses to our wonderful Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Let me start with a question that is bothering me a little. I'm not the best with technology—I only recently learned how to send an attachment.

At our last meeting, you told us that the Chinook program does not include artificial intelligence. However, the members of my team have told me that Microsoft introduces Excel as follows:Excel is a smart solution for experts and beginners alike. It identifies patterns in your data in order to organize them for you and save you time.

So the application finds patterns in our data.

Is that not artificial intelligence? If not, is it false advertising on Microsoft's part?

What can you tell us about that?

[Daniel Mills]

Thank you for the question.

At the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, we use the Chinook application to transfer information directly into our case management system. The information is transferred in an Excel file that we use so that all the information is on the same page. The goal is to make the file easier for our officers to review.

As the minister mentioned, we will be glad to provide you with the details of what the Chinook application contains. In that way, we will be able to better provide committee members with what you need.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

According to Microsoft, Excel transfers information that is generated by artificial intelligence. So there seems to be artificial intelligence. As I understand it, artificial intelligence is built into the Chinook system because of the Excel software. Fine, you can send us the details.

Let's change the subject. According to a document we obtained through the Access to Information Act, an automated system was implemented in 2017. Currently, the average time to process applications for temporary residency is 11 minutes. I gather that your department would like automation to reduce that average processing time to six minutes.

Given that applications for temporary residency in Canada contain an average of 100 to 150 pages, do you believe that 11 minutes, let alone six minutes, will be enough to process them?

Will it then be possible for the processing to be fair and equitable for all applicants?

[Daniel Mills]

Thank you for the question.

I can't really give you an answer to that question because I don't know the details of the analysis you are referring to. However, I will gladly check that information.

Of course, the fact that applicants can now submit applications electronically makes the work a lot easier. As you know, before 2017, all applications were received on paper. For temporary residency applications, everything is now done electronically. It's no longer necessary to go through all the documents, one page at a time. The technology allows for the various attachments to be found in a file or on the screen. So the information can be checked more quickly.

However, I will gladly check the analysis you mentioned.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

[Daniel Mills]

So we will take another look at that issue.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I will be happy to send you the information I received from your department.

An examination of the recent Federal Court case law shows that a growing number of applicants whose applications for temporary residency were refused are turning to the court to challenge the decisions on their files. A significant percentage of those applicants win their cases. The officers are simply no longer looking at the contents of the files in detail. That is clear in the responses they send out, which are increasingly general and uniform. Clearly, the use of automated and artificial intelligence programs is helping to dehumanize the immigration process.

Is the Department of Citizenship and Immigration aware that, currently, the Department of Justice is overwhelmed by the number of lawsuits on matters like study permit applications?

[Marian Campbell Jarvis]

Thank you for the question.

The department is certainly aware of the risk of discrimination or partiality inherent in artificial intelligence systems. We are comfortable following the guidelines from the Treasury Board Secretariat.

I'm sorry, but I am having technical difficulties.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I'm not getting translation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We'll take a minute to check.

Can someone else answer the question for Ms. Campbell Jarvis, because there is some issue with her Internet?

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, please go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, I believe that, at the beginning of her answer, Ms. Campbell Jarvis said that the department was aware of the discrimination caused by artificial intelligence.

Did I understand correctly?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Perhaps Mr. Mills can clarify.

[Daniel Mills]

Unfortunately, we are having a lot of problems with Internet access at the moment. The sequence probably became a little disjointed.

I'll try to come back to the question.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Let me ask the question again, Mr. Mills.

Madam Chair, given the technical problems, can you give me a little more time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We will give you an extra minute, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. Go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

More and more files are ending up in court. There is a sense that this is because IRCC officers are no longer looking at the contents of files in detail.

This is clear in the responses that the applicants receive, which are increasingly general and uniform. The use of automated and artificial intelligence programs is helping to dehumanize the immigration process.

Mr. Mills, are you aware that the Department of Justice is currently overwhelmed by the amount of litigation over applications that your department has processed, specifically study permit applications?

[Daniel Mills]

We work in close collaboration with the Department of Justice and we are certainly aware that they are receiving many requests about our files.

As I mentioned before, the Chinook computer system does not generate decisions. All the decisions on our immigration files are made by our officers. They are highly qualified, very thorough and trained to make those decisions one by one.

The reasons given for the refusals are often the same because we have consolidated our procedures and processes so that the response sent to each of the clients uses the same format and wording. So the wording is standardized and has been designed with the industry and the clients so that they can understand and interpret it easily.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

So you do think that 11 minutes is enough time to process a document of 150 pages. Earlier, you told me that the software takes care of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. Your time is up.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you will have six minutes for your round of questioning. You can please begin.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the officials.

Could the officials table the data on how many applications were accepted and rejected, broken down by year, stream, and country of origin? Please include the top five reasons for the rejection cited prior to the use of Chinook, starting in 2015.

[Marian Campbell Jarvis]

Madam Chair, we've received the request. We will certainly do our best.

One point of clarification is that Chinook would not be a reason. Chinook is a tool that our officers use. That part of the question wouldn't really correspond, but we did note the rates of rejection by country and then the top five reasons.

We'll do our best there, Madam Chair.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I don't know if the official misheard. I said “prior to the use of Chinook”. I did not cite Chinook as a reason for rejection. I said to provide the top five reasons for rejection.

I think it would be critical for the committee to get this work, because the minister just said it would be up to the committee to determine whether there are biases within the system. If we don't get this data, we cannot properly understand what is going on.

In conjunction with this data, could the official also table the data on how many applications the Chinook tool was used to help assess, broken down by the visa office, stream, country of application and year? Of those applications, please include how many were accepted or rejected, broken down by the year, the top five reasons for the rejection, the visa office, the stream and the country of application.

That would be starting when the Chinook tool was implemented and used by officials.

[Marian Campbell Jarvis]

Madam Chair, thank you for the clarification around the Chinook tool and the usage.

We've noted that and we'll take that down.