Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think that a healthy starting point would be to make good on the commitment I made to Mr. Seeback in this meeting, to have this committee do the independent assessment by providing you with all the information we have. I think that would be a really healthy exercise.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Well, actually, having committees look at this and therefore look at some of the issues and concerns would certainly be within the scope of this study, but an in-depth independent assessment of the Chinook tool should be done by someone who's trained to do that work, not by members of Parliament.

Will the minister commit to ensuring that there will be an independent assessment of the Chinook tool?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Before I commit to having a third party do an independent assessment, I need to have demonstrated to me that there is in fact a statistically significant increase in refusal rates as a result of the use of the tool. If the committee concludes that in fact there is discrimination based on the use of Chinook and I agree with that assessment, then I will be in a position to say, yes, we should look at that, but until I see that assessment—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, but time is up.

We will now end our round of questioning with Mr. Hallan for three minutes, and then the Liberals for three minutes. That will end our first panel.

Mr. Hallan, you have three minutes for your round of questions.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, through you, I wanted to touch on a point that Ms. Kwan brought up and continue with it. It's something that I hear about all the time. I get thousands of emails about trust and leadership within this minister's department.

There was a report that came out last year about racism. We haven't heard much about any action being taken on it.

One point that Ms. Kwan brought up is about the ignoring of emails and any contact with the minister or the department. We've heard from Afghans who have said the same thing. There are just ignored emails and autoreplies. Veterans groups and retired generals have been reaching out. Everything has been ignored when it comes to backlogs, and there is no real communication on what's going on.

I've raised questions in question period, Madam Chair, about the frustrations that my constituents and the people who have been contacting me have faced, and we've gotten replies from the minister that these are theatrics or this is just made up or a falsified kind of theatre that we're doing. What we're doing is actually venting the frustrations that we feel constantly because of the failure of leadership within the department of IRCC and any response from this minister.

I've gotten a few responses after seeing the minister's replies, even in question period. Those are the questions that I have to raise again. There's this anti-racism committee that we've heard nothing about and people are concerned. People are concerned that nothing is being taken seriously and it is being brushed off.

I will ask this question again, because I think it's very fair that people have lost faith in the Liberal government over the last six years when it comes to immigration. We've heard many times that money is being thrown at things, but things have not improved, and we can see that by the backlog being at almost two million now. People have serious questions that they are asking on how seriously this government takes racism when they could not address blackface from the Prime Minister himself and we are not seeing any changes from this anti-racism report that was already tabled.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Madam Chair, I take it that I have the remaining minute to answer this lengthy question.

First, on your question about people losing faith in the government over immigration, I'd point out that we have embraced immigration in a way that no government in Canada's history ever has. Literally on Monday of this week, I tabled the most ambitious immigration levels plan in the history of our government, and we're going to make good on it.

[An hon. member]

A plan to [Inaudible—Editor].

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Madam Chair, I believe I have the floor, and I'd ask the honourable member to give me the opportunity to answer. I'll take the extra few seconds in which I've been interrupted.

On processing times and transparency, I literally made a public announcement just a couple of weeks ago to lay out in specific detail all of the measures. Your colleagues have thanked me here for showing up in person twice this week, and I believe I'm here on supplementary estimates in a couple of weeks again. I'm going to keep showing up in the spirit of transparency.

If you'll allow me the few extra seconds, I'll extend my stay to provide a fulsome answer, Madam Chair, because the member raises a real issue around dealing with racism in the department. I was really stunned by the results of that survey. It's deeply upsetting, because when we have—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

The question time is up. I'm sorry for interrupting. The time is up. We will have to proceed to our next—

[An hon. member]

Can't he stay?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Madam Chair, I can stay to finish the answer. I'm at the will of the committee if you'd like to hear the answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Okay. Please go ahead.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Okay.

On this issue, I think it's important that we know where this came from. It's a real problem when I see statements that people have experienced racism from within the department. The study that people have referred to, the Pollara survey, came from a position where, after the murder of George Floyd by police officers in Minneapolis, the department wanted to do something to understand if they, too, had systemic discrimination. They put out the employee survey and they learned that there were very real problems. They established an anti-racism task force within the department.

It's clear that you have concerns and you'd like to have more details about what that task force is doing, and I think it's fair that we should provide those details when we have more than 30 seconds to get into them. This has to be addressed seriously, not just internal to the department, but the outward-facing politics. Internal to the department, if people believe they're going to have a culture where they can't be accepted, we are losing out on some of the best talent that Canada has to offer. It's not just unfair to those employees. It's also unfair to those employees that the work of the Government of Canada suffers if we don't have equitable places of work.

This is something that I am completely committed to. I have asked for regular updates from the department, and I would be happy to provide information in writing at some point to explain what—

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Can we have those findings tabled in this committee by March?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes, there's no final report of the task force yet, but I think it would be helpful if we provided a summary on where we're at.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

The question is that no one has been reprimanded, no one has been disciplined and people don't know of any updates. That's what I just wanted to add.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We have to proceed to our next member. Maybe at the end, we will provide you another opportunity if there's anything that needs to be cleared up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Dhaliwal. In the spirit of fairness, we will give you four minutes for your round of questioning.

Please go ahead.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, I want to congratulate the minister for the 7,000 applications that he mentioned under the new pathway to permanent residency for francophone students, or the Francophonie community. I can tell you that the Francophonie community in B.C. has received that announcement and the path very well.

Is the minister planning to make this pathway permanent for all francophones, rather than just essential workers already in Canada who want to request permanent residency?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I, too, was enthusiastically in support of the TR to PR program. It was a response to a particular moment in time when we couldn't welcome people from outside of Canada. We had to make sure that we could meet the needs of our communities and our economy during the pandemic, when our border was closed to protect the public against the spread of COVID-19.

We learned some really interesting lessons and are continuing to do an analysis on these kinds of programs. There are lessons to be learned when I go forward with my pathway to establish permanent residency for people who are here on a temporary basis and people who are here to study. There are some unique lessons we can learn, particularly in welcoming more francophone international students through a similar mechanism. We haven't yet nailed down the precise mechanism to make sure that happens, but we're looking at those lessons to see if we can repeat the success to some degree as we establish a permanent program going forward.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Madam Chair, the minister also mentioned the 4% francophone immigrant target. It's my understanding that this has never been attained. How is the minister planning to achieve that goal? Will he set a more ambitious target for the francophone immigrants outside of Quebec?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

In my view, it is essential to increase the number of French-speaking newcomers. Canada's cultural identity includes anglophones and francophones.

It's really important that we do this to protect and promote the demographic weight of francophones in Canada. This is part of who we are as a people.

Right now, we have an existing goal of 4.4%. As I said to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe, I don't treat this as a ceiling. What we're doing is boosting settlement services in francophone communities to make sure that when people get here, they are more likely to stay. We're looking for flexibility in the express entry system, working with our partners in the province of Quebec and with provinces outside of Quebec to help them develop some of the specific immigration streams for francophones.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

A point of order, Madam Chair.

Speaking of francophones, I can tell you that we no longer have the interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Let's check.

Okay, we're good.

Please proceed.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I will try to speak French. Let me take this opportunity to thank my Bloc Québécois colleague for his French lessons.

It is both essential and necessary to improve the quality and the services and to increase the number of French-speaking newcomers, whether they be foreign students, or anything else. The Express Entry system must become much more flexible so that the government can welcome many French-speaking newcomers.

There are many measures that we can take. There are many things I'm thinking about. There are some things that we have done. This is a good subject for another conversation with the committee, as I see the chair is flagging that I have only a few seconds remaining.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Madam Chair, the minister mentioned settlement services. It's my understanding that they're only available to people who have PR. The B.C. francophone community is concerned about the other visa holders who are in British Columbia.

Is the minister planning to offer those settlement services to people without PR?