Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 82 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Today we are beginning our study on closed work permits and temporary foreign workers.

For the first hour, I am pleased to welcome back the Honourable Marc Miller, Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship. He is joined by officials from the department: Madam Christiane Fox, deputy minister; and Jean-Marc Gionet, director general, immigration program guidance.

Before I give the floor to the minister, I'll mention that I'm going to be very strict with the time today.

Madam Kwan, you have the floor.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wonder if you can advise the committee, on the public record, on how late the committee will be going in light of the votes in the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

The hard stop today is at 7 p.m. We will give the minister the full hour, starting at 4:20. It will go until 5:20. We will then split the time after that.

One request I would like to make to the honourable members, just to make my life a bit easier, is to have no crosstalk, please. If you think the minister is going a little bit longer on the answer and you want to interrupt, raise your hand and I will acknowledge you, or the minister himself will stop.

With that, I would also love to welcome an honourable member who is just a visitor: Mr. Lehoux, welcome to the committee.

Of course, welcome to Mr. Dreeshen as well. He is substituting for Mr. Kmiec.

With that, I will give the floor to the honourable minister for five minutes.

Minister, go ahead, please.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Minister of Immigration]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to acknowledge our presence on the traditional and unceded territories of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for inviting me to discuss the important role that foreign workers play in Canada's labour market.

There are, as we and this committee well know, significant challenges to Canada's economy in the labour market, whether temporary or permanent. It's worth reminding the committee that 50 years ago, the ratio of worker to retiree was seven to one. It's nearly three to one now. It will approach two to one in the decades ahead if we don't welcome more newcomers, putting our infrastructure, health care and education systems at risk if we don't do so. That's just the reality. We need newcomers to grow our economy and build our country.

Thanks to immigration, we are bringing skilled workers to Canada. Immigration helps employers find the qualified workers they need to address the ongoing labour market shortage. For instance, about half of all degree holders in science, technology, engineering and mathematics in Canada came here from other countries.

Canada maintains oversight of foreign workers and their impacts on our labour market by making certain work permits employer-specific. That means the permit is associated with one occupation, wage, location and employer.

It's important for the purposes of this discussion to distinguish between the two broad permit programs that exist in Canada. The temporary foreign worker program, or TFWP, is managed by Employment and Social Development Canada and my colleague Randy Boissonnault at ESDC. It provides employer-specific work permits with labour market impact assessment requirements. It includes generally four streams, which are primarily agriculture at 40%, low-wage at 25%, high-wage at 16% and global talent at about 4%. That represents about 147,000 work permits that have been issued in 2023 so far.

The second category, a much broader one, is the international mobility program, delivered solely by IRCC, this department. It exempts employers from the LMIA requirement, which is comprised of over 100 streams. It could be professors. It could be engineers. It could be many categories that we could cover today. Only some of those are actually employer-specific. We've issued to date, under that program, about a million permits this year.

Workers under both programs make valuable contributions to our economy and are essential to employers with short-term labour needs. They deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. One need only remind oneself of what happened during COVID and the shutdown, and the crisis that imposed immediately on the economy, if people's memories are short.

Employer-specific permits enable us to conduct inspections to ensure that employers comply with regulatory conditions and employment standards legislation—for example, providing a workplace free of abuse, respecting a worker's job description and not engaging in reprisals against workers who raise concerns. Employers who break these rules can incur penalties ranging from warning letters to fines and to bans on hiring temporary foreign workers, even permanently.

The TFW program further takes into account minimum working conditions and other aspects of collective agreements, including wage requirements, which are used to prevent wage suppression for foreign workers and Canadians alike.

It should be noted that certain streams of employer-specific work permit holders receive additional support through the TFW program. For example, employers hiring under the agricultural stream and seasonal agricultural worker program must pay for a worker’s round-trip transportation from their home country to their job in Canada, then provide suitable housing that’s free of charge, on farm or off site. There are similar requirements for the low-wage streams of the TFW program.

Any instances of harassment, abuse, or exploitation under the program are absolutely unacceptable, and won't be tolerated. IRCC has introduced measures to allow workers with employer-specific permits to change jobs faster. To stem that abuse through the open work permit for vulnerable workers, we are making it easier for workers to leave abusive situations. We are exploring how to broaden temporary work permits to be sector-specific, as well.

IRCC will continue monitoring and improving its policies and programs to ensure they serve the best interests of temporary foreign workers.

Our whole-of-government approach to developing the immigration levels plan, which I tabled last week, also involves taking a closer look at temporary resident immigration levels and making sure they align with our capacity and needs, to ensure sustainable growth, today and into the future.

Thank you, and I'm happy to answer questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you. You were right on the clock for five minutes.

We will start the first round with Mr. Redekopp, for six minutes.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome Minister Miller.

As you're aware, this committee was going to hear from the UN special rapporteur on slavery. As per usual for you and bureaucrats, Mr. Obokata has said a variety of inflammatory things about Canada, such as that we need to legalize prostitution, get rid of human trafficking laws, and things like that.

On the issue of the temporary foreign workers program, he said “certain Temporary Foreign Worker Programs make migrant workers vulnerable to contemporary forms of slavery”. He hasn't released his final report yet, but based on this preliminary report, we know what the final will say.

First, did you, or your department, meet with him to help him better understand the TFW program, and perhaps soften his position?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I did not meet personally with him, but our department did.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

The terrorist regime in Tehran jumped on this report. The Iranian foreign ministry issued its own statement on this and said that “the scourge of slavery is still present in the Canadian government’s policy.”

Do you agree with Iran and the special rapporteur's conclusion that your TFW program is a form of modern slavery?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Without putting words into his mouth, I think the special rapporteur would probably be the first to be outraged at the weaponization of that statement by the Iranian regime. At the same time, the special rapporteur did put some work into this, whether I agree with his characterization or not in those terms. It's something we have to take seriously because, at the end of the day, we're talking about individuals who were allegedly suffering some conditions that, by that description, would be entirely inhumane, particularly in a country like Canada.

I don't want to inflame the situation further, or further give fuel to an opportunistic regime to point fingers where it should really be pointing fingers inward at the abuses of their own citizens. As a mature country, we can all agree that we can criticize each other and have critiques from international organizations like the special rapporteur. I may not agree with his turn of phrase, but my focus is on the people whom he felt were subject to those conditions.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Just to be clear, this a modern form of slavery statement. Are you saying you disagree with that?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I would need to understand what that actually means. I don't know what the descendants of former slaves would think of that characterization compared with the abuse of their forefathers and foremothers. It is something that makes people jump at, but, again, I focus more on the facts, and the material statements of the people who were covered by that. Obviously, if our departments can do something to make their working conditions better, or if Randy's department can, we absolutely should.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Canada's ambassador to the UN is Bob Rae. I would assume you've instructed him to refute this report in some ways, and to push back on it.

When can Canadians expect to hear Ambassador Bob Rae give a rebuttal to this report?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I don't know whether Ambassador Rae beats to anyone's drums. He has his own mind and thoughts on things. I certainly endorse a number of his views.

I'd be glad to speak to him about that, but I haven't done it yet.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Are you saying he's free to have his own opinion on this, and that there will be no instruction coming from your department?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

He obviously takes direction from our government.

Our focus is not on directing our diplomats, in this case, but rather on engaging with the special rapporteur to express our concerns about where we agree and disagree with the report, and on the way we do things in that forum—which is in a diplomatic way.

Again, my job is to focus internally on the people who were targeted by this report and who are the subject of this report. Ultimately, along with my colleague Mr. Boissonnault, it's to improve their working conditions.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

The basis for Mr. Obokata's conclusions go back to the closing of the work permit. You referred to that earlier as employer-specific permits, I think. As you know, this type of permit means that a temporary foreign worker can only work with one specific employer and not move around to other employers.

Thinking specifically of the farmers and producers who employ seasonal temporary foreign workers, do you think closed work permits should be allowed, or should they be phased out?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

That is a subject this committee will be seized with, as will a committee of the Senate. I'm very eager to see the product of that work. I don't think we should phase them out entirely, in my view, based on the facts I have at hand.

It's important to remember that farmers, large or small, or anyone who employs these folks, put significant investment into their coming. Often, with the seasonal nature of things and such, they are dependent on them for their bottom line.

The cure for this is not to do multiple program reforms without addressing the core issue at hand, which is potential abuse. First, the abuse must be addressed. Whether a more open or regional form of permit is desirable is something I'm glad to look at, but I don't think this signals the end of closed work permits.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

You've had meetings with farmers and agriculture stakeholders. Do you understand their issues?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I have.

The individuals who come to mind, with whom I recently met, spoke about the importance of treating their employees well. They're quite proud of how they treat their employees—as if they were part of their own family, in their words.

It isn't about casting aspersions on a whole industry and practice. However, on the margins, there is some abuse. We have to recognize it and address it. There are some bad apples, for sure, and we have to make sure the incentives for people to behave badly are not in place.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Is it widespread, or is it somewhat restricted?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

To be honest, there have been challenges in entirely quantifying it. It does exist. Recognizing that it exists means we have to address it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

We'll go to Madame Kayabaga for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome again, Minister, to our committee.

I think there is a lot of confusion regarding the roles of IRCC and ESDC when it comes to the work permit programs. You mentioned the temporary worker program and the international mobility program in your remarks.

Could you expand on those a bit?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

ESDC is responsible for the temporary foreign worker program, which is on a one-to-seven ratio or a one-to-eight ratio. What we're talking about here tends to be in the agricultural space, but it's not limited to the agricultural space. It's one that is largely administered by my colleague Randy Boissonnault in his department.

There is also the international mobility program, as I mentioned in the introduction, which generally covers more open permits that deal with various specialties. They could be anywhere from engineers to university professors, or people here on a temporary basis who are sometimes free to change jobs.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

We know a lot of temporary foreign workers come to Canada to find better opportunities for themselves and build their families here.

Could you touch on the pathway that temporary foreign workers may have to establish themselves in Canada?