Evidence of meeting #19 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was claimants.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Macklin  Professor and Chair in Human Rights Law, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Murad  Director, Federal Government Relations, The Refugee Centre
Gracia-Turgeon  Director, Quebec Government Relations, The Refugee Centre
Worswick  Professor, Department of Economics, Carleton University, As an Individual
Oldman  Chief Executive Officer, Immigrant Services Society of British Columbia
Bonaventure Amoussou  Executive Director, Immigrants Working Centre

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Good afternoon, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

I want to welcome everyone to meeting number 19 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, so I have some administrative details, as we always begin these meetings with. They are really for those who are online and for our visitors today.

For those on Zoom, kindly click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. Please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For those who are joining us virtually, at the bottom of your screen you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, please make sure to use your earpiece and select the desired channel.

I will let everyone know when they have one minute left.

To everyone, please kindly wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.

Just a reminder, because we have interpretation—we're blessed to have them, and they work really hard—I'm going to ask everyone to please not speak over each other. It's very hard for our interpreters to interpret, and it makes their job difficult overall.

Please address all your comments through the chair. All compliments throughout the next two hours will be very welcome and appreciated. I'm joking, but please address all your comments through the chair.

Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

I thank you all in advance for your co-operation.

I also want to say a warm welcome to both Mr. Kram and Mr. Ho. I know that you are going to be contributing and will be positive additions to our conversation today.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on September 16, 2025, the committee is resuming its study on Canada's immigration system.

I would like to warmly welcome our witnesses for today.

By video conference, as an individual, we have Audrey Macklin, professor and chair in human rights law, faculty of law at the University of Toronto. Welcome.

In person, we have two representatives from The Refugee Centre. We have Eva Gracia-Turgeon, director, Quebec government relations; and Alina Murad, director, federal government relations.

Both groups will have five minutes for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

I'm going to start online, if that's okay, with Professor Macklin for five minutes.

Audrey Macklin Professor and Chair in Human Rights Law, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon. I thank you for this opportunity to address the committee. My remarks will focus on the Canada-U.S. safe third country agreement, the STCA.

As you know, the legal prerequisite for the STCA is that both the U.S. and Canada are safe countries in which to seek and to obtain refugee protection. If the United States is not safe, Canada violates the charter and international law by returning refugee claimants to the United States.

Under the STCA and the legislation implementing it, the U.S. will be unsafe if it sends refugees back to countries where they will not be protected from persecution or from onward deportation to a country where they have a well-founded fear of persecution. This is known as refoulement.

The United States will also be unsafe if it subjects refugee claimants to arbitrary human rights violations on U.S. territory, including arbitrary detention and other forms of abuse.

In mid-2023, the Supreme Court of Canada found that the United States, at that time, was a safe country. It did so by overturning findings of fact made by the trial judge at the first hearing of the STCA case, and in particular, findings that refugee claimants were subject to arbitrary detention in abusive circumstances. The Supreme Court found that detention was not routine for asylum seekers and that detention conditions amounting to abuse could not have been reasonably foreseen by Canadian officials.

This judgment about the United States is only as durable as the underlying facts upon which it's based, so if the facts about the United States have changed, the conclusions of the Supreme Court of Canada will no longer be valid in the present.

What's been happening in the United States since January 2025? Let me give you some examples.

First, the United States has barred all asylum claims made at the Mexico-U.S. border. To bar asylum claims directly violates the United States' obligations under the UN Convention relating to the Status of Refugees, which obliges states to extend protection to those who meet the definition of a refugee at or within their borders.

Second, the United States has entered into several agreements with other states to which it will send asylum seekers. These are not necessarily countries that asylum seekers have passed through en route to the United States; they are random third countries. Many of these countries have abysmal human rights records and are not safe. They include Sudan, Eswatini, Honduras and Rwanda, among other countries. People deported there face imprisonment, human rights abuses and possibly removal to face persecution in their countries of origin.

Third, the U.S. government now uses those third country agreements as the basis for terminating asylum claims already made in the United States. It does so through a process known as pretermission. This is one of several strategies the United States government has deployed to deny asylum seekers access to a fair process in the United States and to deport them to countries where they may face persecution on site or refoulement—being returned to their country of origin to face a well-founded fear of persecution.

Turning to conditions of human rights for asylum seekers within the United States, I'll give you the example of detention. If you'll recall, the Supreme Court of Canada found that detention was not automatic and not abusive. Today, one year after President Trump entered his second term, the use of detention is now mandatory and automatic for people in what is called expedited removal, many of whom are asylum seekers.

So far, over 70,000 people have been detained in the United States, which is a 75% increase over one year. Over 90% of this growth is in detention of people—including children—with no criminal convictions.

Detention conditions are widely reported to violate fundamental human rights—physical, sexual and psychological rights, rights against child abuse—with inadequate food, medical neglect, poor sanitation, etc. Thirty-eight people have died in U.S. immigration detention in the last year. All evidence points incontrovertibly to the conclusion that the United States is not presently a safe country in which to seek or to obtain refugee protection.

Meanwhile, the current Canadian government has redoubled its efforts to enforce the STCA. It refuses to publicly explain why it continues to enforce the agreement in the face of overwhelming evidence that the United States is not safe. Efforts to seek accountability through the courts are stonewalled.

This is my ask, my request to you: I call on you, as a committee, to require the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship and the deputy minister to justify, with evidence, the continued designation of the United States as a safe country in which to seek and to obtain refugee protection. In the absence of this justification, Canada must withdraw from the STCA immediately and divert resources to safe, regular and orderly processing of refugee claimants at Canadian ports of entry along the Canada-U.S. border.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Thank you so much, Professor Macklin.

We'll go to The Refugee Centre for five minutes, please.

Alina Murad Director, Federal Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Madam Chair and honourable members, thank you very much for the opportunity to appear before you today.

My name is Alina Murad. I am the director of federal government relations, and I will be speaking in English.

Eva Gracia-Turgeon Director, Quebec Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Hi. My name is Eva Gracia-Turgeon. I am the director of Quebec government relations, and I'll be speaking in French.

We are here from The Refugee Centre, a community organization that works directly with refugee claimants every day and witnesses both the promise they bring and the systemic barriers that prevent them from rebuilding their lives in safety.

4:40 p.m.

Director, Federal Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Alina Murad

Our message today is simple. Canada's asylum system can be both efficient and humane, through feasible policy changes, if we begin to see refugee claimants as a benefit rather than a burden. The Refugee Centre has seen how bureaucratic inefficiencies directly impact the lives of future citizens. Delayed documentation, inaccessible legal aid and limited economic pathways are compounded to hinder the otherwise successful settlement of refugee claimants.

The first priority is modernizing documentation issuance. Today, refugee claimants rely on paper documents that are frequently delayed, lost or misunderstood by service providers. We propose adopting a secure ID card with a QR code on the back, allowing work permits, eligibility status and health assessments to be uploaded automatically, based on a model being used in Sweden. This would significantly reduce processing and mailing delays, restore dignity to claimants accessing services and accelerate entry into the labour market.

At present, some claimants wait up to two years for an initial work permit, not because they are ineligible but because of administrative bottlenecks. This delay directly increases pressure on provincial social assistance systems and shelters while depriving the economy of workers who are ready and willing to contribute. Evidence shows that refugee claimants are already reporting higher earnings than those in other categories; in some provinces, their earnings approach those of economic migrants. Faster documentation means faster integration and stronger economic outcomes.

4:40 p.m.

Director, Quebec Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Eva Gracia-Turgeon

Second, we must standardize legal aid access for refugee claimants across Canada.

Access to justice should not depend on the province of arrival. Yet legal aid coverage, compensation models and the availability of mandated lawyers vary widely.

In Quebec, fragmented fee structures deter lawyers from taking legal aid files.

In Ontario, hourly compensation has proven to be a success. The result is predictable: claimants are overcharged, misadvised or exploited by bad actors—and governments pay later through increased appeals, judicial reviews and abandoned claims.

A federal-provincial cost-shared envelope, paired with standardized compensation models, would improve representation, reduce downstream costs and support Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada's, or IRCC's, priorities, such as francophone and rural mobility.

4:40 p.m.

Director, Federal Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Alina Murad

Third, it is essential to safeguard procedural fairness mechanisms.

The data is clear. In the first nine months of 2025, the acceptance rate for refugee claims reached 78%, of which less than 1% were fraudulent claims. Also, only 30% of appeals filed in 2024 were allowed. This tells us that the initial decision-making is generally sound. The Immigration and Refugee Board's independence and procedural fairness safeguards are not obstacles; they are what protect charter compliance, public trust and system integrity. Weakening them would increase appeals and judicial reviews, not reduce them.

4:40 p.m.

Director, Quebec Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Eva Gracia-Turgeon

Fourth, Canada must continue to expand complementary pathways that allow people to arrive safely, without risking their lives.

Programs like the economic mobility pathways pilot demonstrate that protection and economic contribution are not competing objectives.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

You have one minute left.

4:40 p.m.

Director, Quebec Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Eva Gracia-Turgeon

Complementary pathways reduce pressure on the asylum system, address labour shortages and allow newcomers to integrate more quickly. Extending these pathways across economic, labour and education streams is a pragmatic response to both humanitarian and workforce realities.

4:40 p.m.

Director, Federal Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Alina Murad

In closing, I'll say that Canada's asylum system does not fail because refugee claimants lack potential. It falters when bureaucracy delays work and legal stability for people who are neighbours, workers and taxpayers.

Madam Chair, the recommendations before you are practical, targeted and backed by years of frontline experience. They would reduce administrative pressure, uphold Canada's legal obligations and unlock the immense potential of refugee claimants in this country.

Canada has the capacity and responsibility to build an asylum system that is fair and functional and that recognizes the talents and contributions of refugee claimants. By exploring these recommendations, not only will our defining values as a country be upheld but our crucial and foundational institutions will also be strengthened.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Great job. Thank you.

Thanks to our speakers for their five minutes.

I am going to move to the first round of questions.

We will start with Mr. Davies for six minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

You're welcome.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON

It's my first time in the first round.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Yes, I'm very excited too.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON

Thank you to the presenters for the information you've given us.

I want to dig in a bit, if you don't mind, on the refugee side of things. Are you tracking, do you have any intelligence on or do you monitor or dive into the data on the number of refugees who seem to have disappeared into the fabric of the country, so we don't really know where they are right now?

4:45 p.m.

Director, Federal Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Alina Murad

I'm sorry. Could I ask for a little bit more clarification on that?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON

Well, let me give you an example. In the city of Niagara Falls, over a period of 18 months, we had a majority of the hotel rooms given to refugee claimants. They have since ceased being given funds for housing in those hotel rooms, but I want to know where they went.

4:45 p.m.

Director, Quebec Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Eva Gracia-Turgeon

That's a very good question.

We would love to be able to collect data to conduct follow-up and to know where people are going. It's a goal, but unfortunately we don't have the funding to do it. However, according to our estimates, about half of refugee claimants will go to their network, whether it's their family or the people they met during their migration journey. The other half are people who will instead need to go through shelters, which may or may not be government-run, depending on the provincial context.

For our part, The Refugee Centre has a transitional housing program. Our organization has developed this expertise. What we raised in our brief is that housing is not sufficiently funded, unfortunately, and that the expertise really lies within the community sector. On our end, we are still able to offer this housing, at a cost that is three times lower than that of the hotel rooms subsidized by the federal government at the time, in Niagara Falls.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON

Thank you for that.

Let me dig into the transitional funding side of things. Where does that funding come from? You said cities or provinces.

4:45 p.m.

Director, Quebec Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Eva Gracia-Turgeon

The interim housing assistance program, or IHAP, is the federal program that funds these transitional housing services. However, right now, that funding is only given directly to provinces or municipalities. That's what was used to pay for hotels, for example.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON

Are there no federal funds at all allocated to housing for refugees who have previously been housed in hotel rooms?

4:45 p.m.

Director, Quebec Government Relations, The Refugee Centre

Eva Gracia-Turgeon

Are you talking about refugees who have been—

I'll answer in English. It will be easier.

They had previously been housed in hotels in the sense.... Do you mean afterwards?