Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 4th, 2026

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Are you familiar with numerous studies indicating that those who are Maghribi or North African in origin have a very high unemployment rate as compared to the average immigrant and the average person in the population of Quebec?

[Christopher Worswick]

I haven't seen numbers, but it doesn't surprise me to hear that, sadly.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

You're not....

[Christopher Worswick]

I'm sorry?

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'm assuming you're not familiar with that.

[Christopher Worswick]

I haven't seen the numbers recently.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

The only reason I mention this is that I wanted to pivot, maybe to Monsieur Amoussou.

Mr. Amoussou, we're racialized people. We know that diverse communities face barriers that other communities don't encounter. One example concerns the emphasis on and recognition of education and professional skills. This phenomenon occurs across the country, not just in one province.

Have you seen this phenomenon in existence? Is it something you've seen in your practice??

[Luc Bonaventure Amoussou]

Yes. We must acknowledge that, no matter what people say, we aren't all in the same boat. Everything is becoming much more difficult. We're immigrants and we're a new generation here. We've noticed that it takes newcomers 10 years to catch up with people born in Canada. As soon as they set foot in Canada, they're 10 years behind, regardless of their level of education.

As part of our integration process, we're trying to shorten this time frame from 10 years to 5 years if we can. However, it's still a major challenge. A newcomer born in Algeria or Benin needs 10 years to catch up, especially in terms of salaries, compared to a person born here. This is despite the fact that the newcomer has the same education and credentials.

Unlike the professor, I wouldn't want to reduce immigration to Canada for economic purposes. Yes, we want to succeed economically, but there's also a human side. The process must be simplified so that the person coming here can make a substantial contribution to Canada's economy. You shouldn't say that you'll choose a person only because that person can make $100,000, and that a person who will never make $60,000 should go home. I believe that this is wrong and that it doesn't reflect well on a country.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

We're all paying taxes, whoever is working: A salaried employee, regardless of income, is still paying taxes.

I'd like to go to Mr. Oldman and ask—very briefly, because I have another question to ask you—simply, do you agree with what you just heard in terms of the testimony that was given?

[Jonathan Oldman]

There has been some really interesting debate, and it illustrates the fact that a bigger conversation about immigration is required. There are some complicated issues here. I think there are some limitations to an approach to economic migration that is simply based on maximizing earnings.

I think about our health care system—in British Columbia and, I think, across the country—in which one-quarter of health care workers across the country, I believe, are foreign-trained or born overseas. When you think about the average per capita salary of Canadians, as well as care aide and home support workers and the shortage we have in those groups, raising those wages is not a practical solution. Raising wages is not a practical solution to demographics and population projections. You can offer to pay people as much as you want, but if population—the working population—is declining, then we have a demographic problem. I appreciate the economic arguments and the theories the professor is putting forward, and I think they have a place, but I don't think it's the entire equation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you very much, Mr. Oldman.

Thank you, Mr. Zuberi.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Amoussou, I'm from Lac‑Saint‑Jean, a fairly remote region in northern Quebec. More and more newcomers are coming to our territory, and we're happy to welcome them. Many people come to complain to the MP's office, which has become an extension of IRCC, because they can't get through to anyone.

Sometimes, these people are lost in the process. This is what we're here to talk about.

Isn't there an obvious issue when people get lost in the various immigration processes in Canada and when they can't simply receive guidance from the federal government because they don't have access to direct services?

Doesn't the problem lie there?

[Luc Bonaventure Amoussou]

It's a major problem that has become even more prevalent recently with the use of artificial intelligence. People talk to machines, not humans. They fill in forms, but any error results in everything being returned to them.

Nowadays, even a person from an organization such as ours, which works directly with IRCC, can call an officer and wait for four hours without anyone answering. This is frustrating enough for partner organizations such as ours. Imagine the frustration of a client who calls directly and who doesn't get any answer.

I think that we're moving towards an automated artificial intelligence system. However, the human side is essential.

Economic class immigrants aside, there are vulnerable people who may face language barriers and who must talk to chatbots or an artificial intelligence interface. It's really unfortunate. We need a balanced approach.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

I'm sorry; we have a point of order.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

The camera is not working properly.

I don't know if we need to knock the guys back there to wake them up, but it's not showing the witness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

I can see the witness.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

No, it's the camera.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Oh, it's the camera.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

It was on the lovely Liberal group there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Okay, I think that's changed now.

Thank you.

We'll give you back the time and still finish at 6:30.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You're absolutely right, Mr. Amoussou. IRCC should be the most compassionate department, but we're hearing that it's the least compassionate of all.

Back in the day, it was possible to visit department offices in the regions. There were also offices for unemployed people.

We sometimes think that we can make progress only by moving forward. However, couldn't we go back to the good practices of the past and draw inspiration from them in order to find solutions?

[Luc Bonaventure Amoussou]

Yes, because some vulnerable clients face language challenges. Speaking with a person helps more than speaking with artificial intelligence or a chatbot.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dzerowicz]

Thank you, Mr. Amoussou.

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe.

We have only four minutes left, so I will give two minutes to Mr. Kram and two minutes to Ms. Tesser Derksen.

Go ahead, Mr. Kram.