Evidence of meeting #30 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was refugees.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK
I've heard before from others that these organizations don't work well together. Is that what you're hearing as well? How does that work?
Professor, Mount Royal University, As an Individual
That is probably the number one issue I hear.
Professor, Mount Royal University, As an Individual
As I said in my opening remarks, I do believe that we.... I was one of the people who worked in this city after 9/11. I believe we need to coordinate so that the Canada Border Services Agency is the agency that's responsible for the security and integrity of this program. That is not to say that I believe in the policing or militarization of our immigration programs, but I do believe that to have a valid program, we need to have security for that.
My research, which is focused on terrorism and counterterrorism, clearly shows that a disproportionate number of individuals who have been apprehended in the plotting of terrorist attacks in this country have entered this country through those streams. I attribute that to a lack of screening and a lack of commitment to security.
In the 15 years of my time as an officer with what is the CBSA, I have arrested and removed people who have done heinous crimes. The amount of time—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you, Professor Sundberg. We are way over time.
Thank you, Mr. Redekopp.
Next, we have six minutes for Mr. Fragiskatos.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
Professor Sundberg, I'll begin with you. I might actually just stay with you. There's a second round, but I wanted to ask you first, sir. A number of points came up.
First, there is your research on refugee claimants. If I understood you correctly, you said that the research indicates that the vast majority of refugee claimants are here on legitimate grounds.
Professor, Mount Royal University, As an Individual
The percentage is well into the 90%.
To clarify, I research terrorism and national security issues. Those are my areas of research. It just happens that when I look at the cases of those who engage in terrorist acts or attempted terrorist acts, I do look at their backgrounds and how they came here or to our Five Eyes partners.
When I do speak with groups, the group that is probably one of the loudest and most concerned is newcomers to our country, who are often exploited by other newcomers who are exploiting them for gain.
The RCMP has indicated that we have 4,000 different organized crime groups that work in this country. We start looking at how the various groups come into our country, remain in this country and then exploit other newcomers. That's what I'm getting at. You have to have a system where you're protecting immigrants, and that requires enforcement. When you have only 420 officers who are specifically tasked with this at a national level, it's window dressing.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON
You left us with a few recommendations. If I understood you correctly, one was on the administrative side in terms of the public service. You're calling for the CBSA to come together with the IRCC.
Can you just go over that again so we're clear?
Professor, Mount Royal University, As an Individual
When we think of the different agencies—and I'm speaking on the enforcement side of the programs—we have the RCMP, CSIS and the CBSA. There is lack of coordination among these. The RCMP is tasked with doing border security in some of our provinces. The provincial governments have implemented their own border patrols and that sort of thing. The disconnect between.... Even within the federal government, with the RCMP and the CBSA, we're just not seeing the working together, the coordination and the moving forward.
I suggest we follow what the Australians have done: have one agency that's responsible for the integrity and enforcement of the program, and staff it so that it's able to actually do its job. Of course, we have to have the immigration department driving this, but we need to have an enforcement component that is effective. We're a huge country, so having a number of agencies that have a little bit of responsibility here and there.... By having it in one, it will be more efficient and effective. At the end of the day, we'll see that others that are engaged can do other jobs, such as the RCMP looking at federal policing matters.
It's really an efficiency issue. There's been very good success in Australia with this approach. I think we should probably follow that.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON
You talk about enforcement; what you're really talking about is deportations, when it's determined that an individual should no longer be here. You're saying that in Australia they have an agency that's responsible for this specific objective.
Professor, Mount Royal University, As an Individual
It's the Border Force. I actually believe the best thing we could do as a nation would be to put our focus abroad so that we could actively engage in helping. We have a proud peacekeeping tradition. We have very limited foreign intelligence, unfortunately. Among the Five Eyes, when I meet with members of that, we're referred to as the “lazy eye”, out of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States. We do not have the staffing abroad or the intelligence capacity to address these issues, to identify the risks, and to—
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON
I don't mean to cut you off, sir, but my time is limited.
Can you talk more about the Australian example? We can look it up, of course, but this agency is recent, I take it. What is this agency specifically tasked with?
Professor, Mount Royal University, As an Individual
They are, in essence, the immigration and customs border services. They work hand in hand with the Australian foreign intelligence service, ASIO. They're working with the administrative components for Australia, but their focus is very much preventative and looking abroad. They have officers who are abroad. It's a good model. It's more prevention-focused as opposed to reactive. I think it's a very good model.
Now, as with anything, I'm not saying that all aspects of the Australian system are great, but they do have some components that I think are great.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON
I think there is a great deal of utility in looking to G7 partners and Five Eyes allies to see what they're doing. It's not about copying, to use that term, because there's a context here that's unique to our country, but we can certainly learn from examples.
Thank you very much for sharing that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.
Thank you, Professor Sundberg.
Mr. Simard, you now have the floor for six minutes.
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Before I begin, I want to make sure that the interpretation is working properly for the witnesses and that they can hear my voice clearly. That seems to be the case.
Mr. Eisen, I really appreciated the reference you made to actual cases in your opening remarks. I would say that all members are certainly able to provide you with plenty of actual cases. For my part, I'm thinking of a Salvadoran family back home in Saguenay—Lac‑Saint‑Jean. They were asylum seekers who waited five years to get a response. That response was ultimately a removal order. We understand all the distress this can cause for these people who have built a life for themselves, settled down and, overnight, found themselves threatened with being uprooted. Fortunately for them, that story ended well because we managed to come to an agreement with Minister Fraser.
I'm telling you this because, often, the failures of the immigration system turn into a source of misery for asylum seekers. You have surely seen that for yourself. However, there may be a solution. I would like you to talk about one aspect in particular, which is a better distribution of asylum seekers. Statistically, when we look at the figures, we realize that Quebec received a disproportionate influx of asylum seekers in 2023. It received 45% of the total asylum claims in Canada. That figure was 30% in 2025. I would also point out that Quebec's demographic weight is 22% of Canada's total population. This disproportionate influx has happened and created pressure on public services. You can easily understand that.
I'd like you to talk about the potential solution of a better distribution, a slightly fairer distribution across the whole of Canada. Perhaps there could be mechanisms inspired by what we're seeing right now in Europe. In sum, if we had distribution mechanisms, could we ensure better protection of refugee rights and, perhaps, more sustainable management of the asylum seeker system across the country?
In-house Counsel, FCJ Refugee Centre
First off, I'm not an academic. I don't study comparative immigration. My thoughts are based on my own frontline experiences. I don't think there is an obvious connection between where claimants end up and how effective the processing of the claims is in terms of speed, efficiency, etc. That could be relevant in terms of integration, and it depends on economic concerns. However, those don't have a direct bearing on the process of assessing claims.
There are three divisions at the refugee protection division: the eastern office, the central office and the western office. I'm not exactly sure how many claims go to each office, but I assume and believe that they're resourced based on how many claimants there are in each region.
At the end of the day, people gravitate towards large cities, where they see more economic opportunity, where there are members of their diaspora community and where they feel a sense of connection that allows them to feel more at home. It's very complicated to centrally direct where people are going to end up. I just see some issues with that.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
I understand.
The reason I bring this up is that community organizations like yours are in direct contact with asylum seekers. The reality in Moose Jaw isn't the same as in Quebec or the Maritimes. The public services aren't the same. They don't have the same capacity to integrate and welcome asylum seekers. If we had a better distribution across the country, it might reduce the pressure on the public services and community organizations that help integrate and welcome asylum seekers. They could be more efficient.
I don't know if you notice this within your organization, and I'm not blaming anyone here, but the services offered to asylum seekers are certainly not uniform across the country.
In-house Counsel, FCJ Refugee Centre
I support clients from all across Canada. It is certainly the case that people move to other provinces outside of Ontario and to smaller communities in Ontario for economic reasons. Certainly, it is harder for them to access various kinds of services, including finding legal representation. That is an ongoing issue, and there is definitely something to what you are saying there.