Evidence of meeting #30 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was refugees.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Professor, Mount Royal University, As an Individual
Yes, the TRP is the process that is used.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you, Professor Sundberg.
Thank you, Mr. Redekopp.
Next, we have two minutes for Mr. Fragiskatos.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON
I think it is important to put things into context. First of all, the individual in question who was mentioned by our colleague is no longer in the country. He is on the way back to Iran, where he belongs.
As far as the CBSA and keeping the country safe are concerned, our government is investing, as we know, to ensure that exactly that happens. A further 1,000 individuals are being hired. That process has begun. I could turn partisan here and talk about previous cuts under a previous prime minister under a previous Conservative government, but that doesn't get us anywhere.
Professor Sundberg, I have only two minutes, and you were kind enough to engage in questions in the first round, so I'll turn to Ms. Maulfair.
Thank you very much, again, for being here. We have tremendous respect for the UNHCR and what it contributes. The narrative turn that we see in democracies on immigration writ large.... We could talk about refugees, but I'll say it's on immigration in general. We know how that turn has gone.
What advice do you have for parliamentarians—not just members on the governing side, but parliamentarians in general—on what we can do to be constructive when we talk about immigration?
Representative in Canada, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
I don't think I'll take even that much time.
The answer is evidence-based statements and evidence-based policy. Let's use facts. Let's find out what they actually are and then let's use them. None of the things that have been said here today are at odds with each other. It's about making sure that the right and true facts are the ones that get presented.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.
Thank you, Ms. Maulfair.
I want to thank all of the witnesses for their time and their excellent testimony, which will be part of our study.
We're going to suspend for five minutes or so to allow our current witnesses to leave, and then we will come back with the second panel.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
I call the meeting back to order.
Welcome back, Mr. Deschênes.
I want to make a few comments for the benefit of the new witnesses.
As you will see, and as explained by our wonderful IT ambassador, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French.
I will let you know when you have one minute left in your opening statements.
Kindly wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. As a reminder, all comments should be addressed to the chair.
I would now like to warmly welcome our witnesses for our second panel today. We have everybody online. We miss having you in person, but we're glad that you could join us.
We have Herbert G. Grubel, emeritus professor of economics. Welcome.
We have Hélène Mayrand.
She is a professor at the Université de Sherbrooke.
Welcome.
We also have Patrick Chevarie, businessman and owner.
Welcome to you as well.
We will start with your opening remarks for five minutes, and we will then move on to questions.
I will invite Professor Grubel to begin, for five minutes.
Professor Grubel, your five minutes start now. Go ahead, please.
Herbert Grubel Emeritus Professor of Economics, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I travelled around the country for two years with the finance committee, so I'm very familiar with the atmosphere.
Most fundamentally, I welcome public hearings, as we are having now, on the design of our immigration policy. I hope it will get the deserved publicity and discussion in Parliament that have been needed.
On a personal note, despite my numerous academic publications in the field of immigration economics, I was never asked to participate in the discussions around the setting of official immigration targets and selection criteria, nor was I ever asked, as a member of Parliament from 1993 to 1997, to vote on these issues. Only once did the minister tell me privately to keep up my research and publications and hold his feet to the fire.
I believe that in the greatest need of change are policies determining the number and selection criteria of temporary residents who are admitted to work or study in Canada. Foreigners who fill seasonal or temporary labour shortages in the economy should be admitted in numbers at frequent, regular intervals set by a parliamentary committee.
There should be no foreign students attending elementary and secondary schools. They do not benefit Canada. They burden our schools' resources. Foreign students should be admitted to attend Canadian colleges, universities and graduate schools. They bring valuable benefits to the institutions and the economy, especially to the extent that they pay tuition. Foreign students who have completed degrees at these institutions should no longer be deferred candidates for permanent resident status. The government should adopt a policy to ensure that temporary workers and students leave Canada after their visas have expired.
On a separate issue, parents and grandparents should be granted only visitor super visas, which was practised before the changes initiated by the government in 2016. It makes eminent sense. If a foreigner does not want to come without his parents, he should just not come.
The system dealing with asylum seekers needs to be reformed, possibly fundamentally, much as it is in other western democracies. Such reforms may include the development of ways in which the backlog of applications for refugee status is reduced. I'm fully aware that this is one of the most difficult problems our foreign policy faces.
There are no easy solutions. There are trade-offs that involve fundamental human values, such as the suffering of immigrants, but also the suffering of Canadians who find their housing, access to medical care—
Emeritus Professor of Economics, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
That's fine. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm done.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you, Professor. I appreciate that.
I now give the floor to Professor Mayrand for five minutes.
Hélène Mayrand Professor, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
Good evening, everyone. Thank you for taking the time to listen to me today, and for the work you do on this committee.
In my research as a law professor over the past 10 years, I have focused on how certain rules, adopted to preserve the integrity of Canada's immigration system and to make it more efficient, have actually had the opposite effect of these objectives, in addition to negatively affecting the protection of migrants' rights in Canada.
The purpose of my presentation today is, first and foremost, to convince you that adopting more rules—in order to send a strong political message that something is being done to address the problem of the immigration system's abuse—often doesn't have the desired effect. Second, we need to think more broadly about the effects of these new rules, so that they don't put even more pressure on other sectors and don't shift the problem, in addition to contributing to insecurity for both migrants and Canadian communities.
Let me give you an example—the famous Safe Third Country Agreement—which we've already discussed and which you've heard about a number of times. I could give you other examples during the question and answer period, if necessary.
I want to begin by emphasizing that I agree with other stakeholders who have pointed out a number of issues regarding the violation of the human rights of migrants returned to the United States through the application of the Safe Third Country Agreement. I also believe that the situation has been particularly concerning since January 2025.
The government should focus on this situation and consider suspending the application of the agreement. I know this is a controversial topic for some of you, but the message I want you to take away is that, in addition to the human rights issues affecting migrants, there are also repercussions on the system's effectiveness and on the sense of security of communities living along the border, which is directly related to the committee's consultation.
Since the Safe Third Country Agreement was extended to the entire land border and since the closure of Roxham Road, which we heard about earlier, migrants have turned to other routes to come to Canada. Thus, on paper, the statistics available on the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada's website indicate that irregular entries have decreased. However, in reality, clandestine entries by people who no longer present themselves to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP, as was the case before the closure of Roxham Road, have increased. This fact has actually been documented by the RCMP itself and reported in a number of media outlets.
I have begun a research project with a doctoral student examining how the Safe Third Country Agreement and increased border security have significant humanitarian and security implications for the cross-border community of the Regional County Municipality, or RCM, of Coaticook, in the Eastern Townships. Our preliminary data indicates that there has been an increase in illegal border crossings in the region. As you may have heard in the media, a person was even found dead in the woods. The news was reported this past March, but the person died last year. This type of incident had never occurred before 2023. It puts additional strain on local resources, in addition to creating a sense of fear among the population.
The fact that Canada, under Bill C‑12, which you have heard about, is unilaterally removing the 14‑day rule for locating immigrants only amplifies this phenomenon. This is a glaring example of an attempt to reduce pressure on the asylum system and protect its integrity, but which, in reality, adds pressure asymmetrically: Rules are added at the federal level, but the pressure is felt locally, within the RCM. This pressure is also felt in terms of the resources and security measures put in place at the border and in border communities, while increasing insecurity for both the community and migrants.
A number of stakeholders have highlighted bureaucratic issues, such as a lack of coordination and delays in application processing. The previous panel talked about that. I think these are the real issues that need to be addressed.
Professor, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
Okay. Thank you.
With regard to asylum seekers, the solution, in my opinion, does not lie in increasing the grounds for inadmissibility of their claims, as the government is trying to do through Bill C‑12 and certain amendments. In my view, and in the view of a number of stakeholders, it lies in reducing application processing times and creating alternative migration pathways.
Thank you very much. I look forward to your questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you, Professor Mayrand.
I will give the floor to Mr. Chevarie for five minutes.
Patrick Chevarie Businessman and Owner, Gestions P. Chevarie inc.
Good evening.
My name is Patrick Chevarie, and I have been a businessman for over 30 years in the Îles de la Madeleine. I am here today to talk to you about the Îles de la Madeleine. It's a small archipelago located in the middle of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, in eastern Canada. It's a beautiful little island that you should add to your list of places to visit.
The day you come to the islands to see us—it will be a wonderful day—you will notice as you arrive by boat that there are almost no Madelinots working on board anymore. The Madelinots are us, the people of the Îles de la Madeleine. There are very few Madelinots; they're all people from outside.
You'll also see, as you eat our delicious crab and lobster from the islands, that it's now all Mexicans processing crab and lobster, as there are very few Madelinots left to work in the factories. You'll also notice, while having a good cup of coffee at Tim Hortons, just how popular it is because that's where people socialize. You'll also notice that all of the very smiling people who work there are Filipinos. They arrived in 2023 to help us keep the business open.
Why am I telling you all that? Because we live on an island. We're isolated. We're far away. We're not even a rural community; we're out on the water, out at sea. So we're very far from everything. Our population is aging. There are hardly any young people left in high schools and elementary schools. Their numbers are declining, as is the case pretty much everywhere in Quebec. According to the statistics, for every 100 people retiring in the Îles de la Madeleine, there are 43 to replace them. We're losing people, ultimately.
The reason I'm here is a bit personal. I mentioned the Tim Hortons restaurant, where you'll be getting your coffee in a few months. If you visit us in the fall, you will realize that it doesn't exist anymore. It will be closed because of changes to laws here in Canada, since September, that prevent us from renewing the permits of our Filipino workers, our international workers. You might say that it's just a Tim Hortons, that it's just the Îles de la Madeleine, and that it's not a big deal. However, for our community, it's a lot, because it's the social hub. It's where everyone gathers. It's important to the people of the islands.
If I go a little further, I can tell you that, in the Îles de la Madeleine's restaurant sector, most establishments are closed several days a week owing to a lack of staff. Many foreign workers also work in co-operatives, day care centres and the health care system.
I am the largest employer of foreign workers in the islands. Very few people want to work in a field like mine.
A number of Filipinos have come to the islands with their families. Their children are in school, and the family members have open visas that allow them to work for us. This enables us to provide excellent customer service.
I think special attention must be paid to remote regions. As I said, the situation in the Îles de la Madeleine is unique, as we are a small island in the middle of the ocean. However, in remote regions, we have difficulty finding employees—local people—to work in our businesses.
We've had to turn to temporary foreign workers for help. It's unfortunate. As a business owner, I have invested a lot of money to bring in these people, to get the business back on its feet after the pandemic. All the money invested was supposed to pay off over 10, 20 or 30 years, but now it may only pay off over three years. Our workers have to leave and, ultimately, we'll have to close the business.
This is a situation I am sharing with you today, but there are many other similar situations in Quebec and likely across Canada. I don't know about other regions; I know about ours, on the islands. That's why I'm here today. I want to give you an update on our situation and the situation of many other business owners who are going through the same thing.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz
Thank you, Mr. Chevarie.
We will begin the first round of questions.
Mr. Menegakis, please go ahead.
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all of our witnesses for appearing before us today.
I'd like to start my questions with you, Professor Grubel. Do you believe the Liberal government considered the impact on things like health care, housing and jobs prior to letting in the largest number of immigrants they've allowed in over the past decade?
Emeritus Professor of Economics, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
I wouldn't know. It turns out, whatever they did, it was very bad for Canada.
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Would you agree that there are diseconomies of scale when letting in so many people at once? The costs may actually be higher than if immigration was done in a slower, more sustainable manner.
Emeritus Professor of Economics, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Exactly. It turns not into a positive for the country as a whole, but a negative. I have great sympathy for gentlemen like.... We heard from the island that there is a labour shortage, but if we bring too much of anything, suddenly you will have adjustment problems. It was more than adjustment problems. It was killing our economy.
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
You make a very valid point there, sir.
Do you think it has an impact on the ability of newcomers to Canada to have successful outcomes when so many are coming? Of course, it creates a problem with finding jobs, finding a residence to live, getting health care and so forth. Do you think it is an environment that is conducive to their being able to succeed in Canada as newcomers to our country?
Emeritus Professor of Economics, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
I'm not in contact with immigrants, but I read a lot about what is going on in the economy. I hear that the recent immigrants are a strong lobby for reducing the rate of immigrants. They are the ones at the front who feel this problem, as well as our own less skilled young people whose jobs are being taken.
