Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2007

[Sharon Matthews]

I don't think any of us could comment and be clear on that. I really think the Department of Finance would be the players that you should ask the question of.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Does the committee want the clerk to get that information for the committee? If the Minister of Finance has to attend, we can ask that question.

Thank you. The chair is going to take the opportunity to ask a question.

I spent about 25 years in Yukon, and I have to say I observed housing. In fact, I was a contractor and did some building on behalf of the department years ago. It was a real challenge in the past, because design and building codes weren't really site specific. It's a big country, and there are various building challenges and what I call good practices as far as building is concerned.

I have to say that has really improved. I've seen that in Yukon, and I think the department has done a great job. But a lot of it has come because they have empowered the local bands, and the local bands, of course, have local knowledge of how to do things. There has been a vast improvement as far as housing in Yukon goes, so I think there have been gains.

Quite frankly, to my colleague Jean Crowder, I would live in any of the houses belonging to first nations in the area where I used to live in Dawson City, Yukon. I'm very familiar with that.

It's a big task. One of the challenges is not just money. As for the quality of houses that were built in the past, we're having problems with mould, rotting porches and entrances, and all those kinds of things because there hasn't been a high enough standard. I think it's very important to make sure the investment is made in long-term housing.

Mr. Albrecht made suggestions on the type of housing where they have concrete insulated foundations and even walls. That's a far better product for some applications in some regions in Canada. So those are good things that are happening with the department. I know it is a big challenge.

Are there any further questions from the government side?

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

On page 5 of the briefing material we received, there's one sentence I would like clarified, where it says, “Many first nations do not charge for housing and/or utilities.” Could you expand a bit on why that would be? I know they don't have the funds, but somewhere along the line someone has to pay. Who is picking up the tab?

[Claire Dansereau]

As I said earlier, we have funding agreements with them for housing. They make the kinds of choices they need to make on to how to manage both the funding and the livability of those houses. Sometimes they will make the decision that no rent needs to be paid because the people have no money. In other cases they will use that base to charge some rent and make some improvements to the houses. It's a case-by-case situation on which they make their own decisions.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

On the land tenure question, you indicated that 50% do not use the provisions of the Indian Act on certificates of possession. I think that was made in a statement on page 6. It goes on to say that many communities do not have housing policies that address matrimonial property issues.

Do a large percentage or a small percentage of communities not have policies related to that? It's one of the issues we're dealing with in the House as well.

[Claire Dansereau]

I won't speak to the matrimonial property issue because there are other places for that discussion to happen.

I think a growing number of communities are putting into place those kinds of codes.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Their own codes and policies.

[Claire Dansereau]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Are there any further questions? We're going to run into the 15 minutes I was going to allot for committee business, but because we have the witnesses here, I'm open to that if the committee is willing to continue.

Madam Karetak-Lindell.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I guess mine is more of a comment than anything else.

When we look at the numbers, and also the numbers we got from Statistics Canada and comments made by my colleagues, the numbers are very clear that unless you make greater investments now, you cannot meet the needs of the housing requirements for aboriginal communities.

From the brief, I know that Nunavut is probably the territory that has the most need. For the number of dollars, you're always going to get fewer houses there because the costs are higher. For the x number of dollars that you can build maybe 10 houses, you're only going to build five in Nunavut because of the extra costs.

I appreciate the information that you gave. I know that some of the questions that were asked are really political questions that can be answered only by the minister--and political will by a government to invest the right number of dollars. I appreciate where you're coming from, and I know that housing has improved.

I worked in the housing sector as manager of social housing. I understand that unless you get more investment to meet the growing needs, you can't catch up. A one-time investment is not going to do it. It has to be a continual and greater number each year just because of the facts. The statistics state that. I'm sure you're all going to agree that unless you're putting in more now than is needed, you're never going to catch up. That's reality. I'm sure no one can refute that.

My push is that there has to be the proper investment and the proper resources. It's a basic need. It's a blot on Canada's international standing to have that disparity between aboriginal communities and the rest of the country. So this is more a comment than anything else: unless we invest more today, we're never going to catch up.

I know there was a question by Anita on the fee simple, and there was no time for an answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

You still have time. There are two and a half minutes.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

In my original question I asked about the movement to fee simple, or the apparent movement to fee simple, and what impact that would have on the housing policy. Can you answer that, Ms. Dansereau?

[Claire Dansereau]

The movement that we see is not so much moving to fee simple, although I'm not an expert in real estate. It's more a movement to market-based, which is a little bit different. Fee simple is a type of ownership of the land, which is not what we're talking about here. We're talking about market-based approaches to the building of houses.

I don't see a movement to fee simple, but I think the CMHC people are in the best position to answer that question.

[Sharon Matthews]

I would agree with Claire's response. When we talk market solutions, we're not talking movement to fee simple. If you move to a fee simple situation, you wouldn't be respecting the communal ownership of the land.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm aware of that, but I do see a movement toward fee simple. I see fee simple becoming much more part of the language right now. Obviously you're not experiencing it. Perhaps it's still a political exploration. But it's becoming much more part of the language that I've heard from government. I'm interested to know how you see that.

In fact, there has been a recent proposed settlement in one situation that I am familiar with where the lands will be granted only on a fee simple basis. But if you're not aware of it, so be it.

[Sharon Matthews]

Are you speaking of settlement lands, for example, in the Yukon and areas like that?

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

No. It's a particular situation in one of the provinces where one of the communities was looking for land.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Which riding are you talking about, Anita? Which reserve?

Well, you put it on the record, so you might as well tell us what you're talking about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We are out of time.

Mr. Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chairman, last summer, we travelled to Sweden. One of our Liberal colleagues here today was part of the group. The two Conservative members are not here.

We attended the Circumpolar Year Forum, and in the context of this event, the Government of Canada made a commitment to provide $150 million to educate people living along the coasts about ways to deal with global warming. As we know, global warming is causing irreparable damage to the houses and other buildings along the Arctic coasts.

Has the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs made the appropriate requests of the government in order to offset this phenomenon? This will involve a very large amount of money. We are going to have to act quickly if we want to prevent more significant damage.

[Sharon Matthews]

Maybe I'll tackle this.

On building codes, to be clear, CMHC and the federal government, in other areas, do not develop the building code in Canada. The building code is under the jurisdiction of the provinces and territories. We have a national building code that takes the components of theirs, but it is not a regulatory role that CMHC takes on, nor does INAC obviously.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I don't think that answered my question.

I said that climate change was damaging houses and other buildings and that they needed to be stabilized, within northern Canada and northern Quebec.

Has the Department of Indian Affairs or the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, in cooperation with the government, made provision for the costs of these repairs and the fact that they must be done immediately, to prevent any further damage?

[Claire Dansereau]

I can tell you, Mr. Lévesque, that our northern program, which I do not represent, is looking at what can be done in this regard. We can send you information on this, if there is some available.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I would be pleased to receive that.

[Claire Dansereau]

Thank you.