Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 29th, 2007

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I have two quick comments before I put a question.

I'm pleased to hear people talking about economic development, and here is my pitch for the North American Indigenous Games in 2008 in the Cowichan Valley and the 2010 Olympics in British Columbia. What a great opportunity for aboriginal tourism, so here's my pitch for money for that.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

And the longhouse.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

A quick comment about the conversation around funding anomalies with education. When the minister was here he was talking about an integrated plan that, to me, seems to sound like provincial standards are important, yet we have serious differences. For example, again in the province of Manitoba, where their average funding is $8,900, the department only supplies $6,400 to this one particular school. It seems to me it's talking out of both sides of the mouth.

This may be more a political question than a departmental question, because it seems to me that if we're saying provincial standards are what we're trying to achieve, we should fund them at a provincial level. It only makes sense.

My question has to do with page 185 in the estimates under the heading “Explanation of Funds Available (dollars)”. In vote 1 it says “...reduced requirements related to the Federal Contaminated Sites Action Plan 2007-2008 funding...”, and then there's a reduction in money.

This week there was a story in one of the papers that talked about reserve sites that had unexploded missiles and things from DND. I don't know whether there's coordination between INAC and DND about cleaning up some of those reserve sites, so I wonder if there has been any discussion, particularly since it appears there has been a reduction in contaminated sites. I wonder if you could address that.

The second piece I wonder if you could address is on page 183. Toward the bottom it says, “Funding to contribute to the Aboriginal Peoples Survey conducted by Statistics Canada to provide a snapshot of socio-economic...”, and so on.

I have asked this question in the past. When can we see some results from that survey? I wonder if you could update us on that.

[Michael Wernick]

It's the first time I've actually been asked a question about a line item in the supplementary estimates for some time, Ms. Crowder.

In reverse order, I'll get back to you on that. That was basically to do a post-census survey. When we do the survey 2006-2011, Statistics Canada goes out and does an in-depth survey in aboriginal communities on those questions. I think some of the first of that work will be flowing early in the new year. I can get you more of a timeline on that from Statistics Canada.

On the contaminated sites, I'll turn to my chief financial officer on that for a decision, but I imagine this is about money moving across years. We have a contaminated sites action plan where we've spent roughly $100 million in the north and a dozen in the south. For the actual line item, I think I'll have to phone a friend.

[Jim Quinn, Chief Financial Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

On the contaminated sites, some of the work slows down over the year for things of that nature, so what happens is those moneys are used in other areas and are offset so that we reduce—we net out, if you will--the need to come back for a larger amount to Parliament.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

The reduced requirements are actually misleading, then. It's really simply a budgetary move.

[Jim Quinn]

That's right.

[Michael Wernick]

It's a reduced requirement, to ask Parliament for appropriation, because we found another way to keep the cash moving.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay.

In relationship to this story that dozens of reserves could contain abandoned military explosives, is that going to be factored in, in some way? This is a new and emerging story, so it wouldn't have been reflected in the supplementary estimates.

[Michael Wernick]

The contaminated sites program was conceived around environmental hazards such as mine sites, toxic waste, and all that sort of thing. To the best of my knowledge, it didn't contemplate these kinds of issues. That would be DND, who created the mess, to clean it up. We've certainly noticed the story, too, and will be working on them.

In particular communities, like Ipperwash or Enoch near Alberta, there were firing ranges and so on. They are definitely a problem for the communities and create land management issues, so we'll certainly be working with DND to see what would be involved in remediation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you. That's it.

Before I go back to the government side for what will be the last turn in the third round--we will do that, but then, committee, we can decide afterwards whether we want to progress to a fourth round and continue going until five or ten after, or if we want to proceed on to deal with the votes.

I'm in the hands of the committee on this. But I understand Mr. Albrecht wants to go quickly, and then Mr. Warkentin.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Yes, I have a 20-second follow-up. In terms of the buy-in on the part of first nations and other aboriginal communities to economic development opportunities, it's been my experience that they're eager to adapt and adopt. I would just encourage us to advance as many opportunities for resourcing them as we can.

Thank you, and I want to turn it over to Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you, Mr. Albrecht, and thank you to the witnesses for being here this morning. We do appreciate your comments thus far and your enlightened perspectives.

I just want to branch off in terms of the economic development and best practices and lead it in a bit of a different direction. I know I'm probably wandering away again from the supplementary estimates, and I do apologize and I beg your indulgence.

I was wondering if the department has a best practice when it comes to land development within aboriginal communities or if they have some type of an initiative to promote best practices when it comes to the development of aboriginal lands.

[Michael Wernick]

Best practices would be--and correct me if I'm wrong on this, Jim--the nations that have gone through the First Nations Land Management Act and assumed control of land management on their reserves. They've basically left the Indian Act and moved into a regime where they do land management for themselves.

We have about 20 to 25 communities that have done that and another 30 that are very close and are working their way through that process.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

If they haven't moved into that process, and if they haven't signed off, is it the department's responsibility to then oversee the development of the land?

[Michael Wernick]

Yes, there are a whole bunch of statutory responsibilities on the minister and on me that basically flow from the Indian Act, and if you haven't moved out of the Indian Act through self-government or through some of these other legislative instruments, then it's the Indian Act regime that applies.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Okay. I'm new to the committee and I'm just learning, but I do have a number of aboriginal communities in my riding. What my perspective has been, or what I've seen, is that we have one community that is doing an exceptional job of managing their land and building homes in places that make sense, and then we have communities where, after two years of having new construction, families are having to move out of their homes because there's black mould in their homes and they find that they were built on a swamp.

Unfortunately, we had a horrific case where an elderly couple is no longer able to remain in the community because they are now both on respirators. It's really tragic, and this was a brand-new home. There was major money spent to provide them with the new home, and yet two years into it we're finding they're on respirators. It's in the courts right now, but unfortunately the band has basically washed their hands of these folks and said, “You're on your own. You wanted the home there; we complied with your wishes.” I'm wondering if there's some mechanism to ensure that this type of activity doesn't continue.

I know in many municipalities people are restricted from building in places that don't make sense, but this family, and many families in some of these communities, are unfortunately facing conditions that aren't as a result of lack of infrastructure dollars but as a lack of planning.

[Michael Wernick]

I'm not sure how to tackle that one. I mean, there's a legitimate concern by parliamentarians in value for money for the dollars that flow into the communities through contribution agreements, but it also has to be balanced by the local jurisdiction and accountability for what they do with the money.

There's a really important issue that you've identified, which is this. How do you strengthen capacity at the community level, the ability to do planning, the ability to do financial management, the ability to do land use planning? There are a number of initiatives we could come back to some other time.

We don't want to be in the paternalist role of telling communities how to do things, but we do want to do whatever we can, particularly given the small size of the communities, to strengthen their capacity.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I do appreciate that, and obviously there's no question that you would have these types of issues brought to your attention, but it's not for a lack of funding sometimes. Sometimes it's a lack of best practices being available to some of these communities, especially if they're new to the development side of things.

I'm not sure what the answer is for that, but I do appreciate your comments, and we'll continue to investigate those different things.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thanks, Mr. Warkentin.

We're going to begin the fourth round. By my watch we have time for two more turns.

Ms. Neville, you're first.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much, and thank you all for coming. So little time, so many questions, and so much confusion.

Let me just make one quick comment on the residential schools. I really believe it is lamentable that when the agreement said 35 days, the government did not put in place the resources necessary to meet the uptake from the survivors of the residential schools question. We know the development had been done in the communities by the AFN, by other groups preparing the communities for these dollars, and I think the government was ill-prepared to deal with it.

But having said that, I'm going to move on to something else. We've heard a lot of talk about economic development. We all know the importance of education, and others have spoken about that and I'm not going to go there right now, but education is a precursor for economic development. I've been advised that economic development funding within the department was withdrawn and reallocated to the expenditure review. I would welcome some information on that, if that is in fact the case, and how so and why so.

My other question relates to child welfare. We know that almost nine months ago the AFN filed a complaint to the Canadian Human Rights Commission on the discriminatory treatment of first nations child welfare cases. You referenced earlier, and I think the minister referenced earlier, a pilot project that's been undertaken in Alberta. I don't want to take anything away from that, but I would say that the children of Manitoba and the children of New Brunswick and the children across the country are equally as important as the children of Alberta, and I'd like to know how you're moving that forward. I'd like to know how many people are overseeing the first nations child protection program, what are the plans, and how would you compare a provincial child welfare agency with what is happening in terms of first nations children? I'll stop there. I have more questions if I have time.

[Michael Wernick]

I want to give Dr. Harrison a chance to talk about the preparations on residential schools.

[Peter Harrison, Senior Associate Deputy Minister of INAC and Deputy Minister of IRSRC, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you for the question. Thank you, Deputy.

Mr. Chair, a number of things have happened since I last appeared before this committee on May 29, 2007, and in particular the settlement agreement is now in place. The minister mentioned it came into effect on September 19. This is court ordered and court monitored, which is obviously a very critical part of what is taking place. I'd like to begin, Mr. Chair, given the importance of this and given the fact that it's the largest settlement of a class action suit ever in Canada, to offer to the committee that should you wish technical briefings, because this is enormously complicated from a legal point of view and so on, we would be willing to do that.

In terms of preparations, we spent a lot of time putting together the records--and Madam Neville has raised questions of records--building a computer system from scratch that would do that, and putting in place people to do the research. In terms of numbers, yes, nearly 80,000 people have applied, some of them yesterday, the day before, last week, and so on.

We have now processed just over 30,000 with Indian residential schools. This is for an amount, including the advance payment of nearly $600 million, which has flowed to individuals. But, Mr. Chair, I'd like to put this in the broader context, because the settlement agreement includes a number of very significant items, including the common experience payment.

If I had together the common experience payment, the advance payment, what we've paid on the litigation, what I've approved for settlements under alternative dispute, legal fees, and the aboriginal healing foundation, we have flowed $1.079 billion in relation to this settlement.

Thank you.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I had other questions: child welfare, the reallocation, and the economic development funding.

[Michael Wernick]

The reallocation comes from the expenditure review cuts made in the 2005 budget, and there was some compression on the economic development program. We did take some money out of that budget and now we're in the process of trying to rebuild from here.

The advice from the board that was mentioned by Mr. Albrecht is to focus on access to capital issues, and that's where we're going to start. The small business development is through Aboriginal Business Canada and the people tools, the training, skills partnership stuff are at HRSD. Economic development is people, capital, and know-how everywhere on the planet, and that's the recipe we're going to follow with aboriginal economic development.