Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 5th, 2009

[Michael Wernick]

That's an excellent question. I would say there's more and more interest on the part of first nations and their neighbouring municipalities to do joint projects, certainly more than you would have heard ten years ago. In some cases the common sense, cost-efficient thing to do is to build a facility off reserve and throw a line or connection out to the reserve community. That requires agreements and contracts and understandings about who's going to pay for what. There are a few cases where it makes sense to build a facility on the reserve and then serve the neighbours from that. We look for those opportunities everywhere. The people in the field are the ones who can spot those opportunities. We also try to share training and inspection wherever possible. If somebody is going to go out and inspect the off-reserve water plant, they might as well pop into the reserve, and so on.

That's part of the partnership theme the minister was talking about. Those were hard to come by about ten years ago, but we're now seeing more and more of them on the ground.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Duncan, Mr. Albrecht.

Mr. Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I would like to come back to a topic we discussed earlier, namely the trusteeship arrangement. I spoke with Mr. Sauvé from your office and he forwarded my inquiry to Mr. Dion in Montreal. Mr. Dion informed me that the trustee did not have the mandate to settle the community’s debts. I was referring in this instance to the community of Rapid Lake. Under the circumstances, the entrepreneur would need to wait until the band council was back in charge to be paid. That could take a while and the work that was carried out in that community was fairly major.

Beyond that, when funding to a community is increased because it cannot operate in the black with its current allotted budget, is there not some sort of adjustment made to ensure that the community can operate debt free with its new budget and can then continue to manage its own affairs?

Otherwise, the community becomes caught in a vicious circle. People have the choice between letting their old debts ride or settling them and racking up new ones. When it comes to adjusting the budgets, is there not some provision in place to allow communities to start over on an even footing and then continue to manage their own affairs?

[Michael Wernick]

You’re getting into program specifics. I think I’d better reflect upon this further and give you my answer in writing.

Generally speaking, we try to avoid situations where a community becomes indebted to that extent. We create incentives to allow it to move beyond the trusteeship arrangement as quickly as possible. One of the first steps is to agree on a plan of action to get out of the debt situation.

You have asked some very specific questions and I will endeavour to provide you with answers as soon as possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have three minutes remaining.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Wernick, I know that you are going to provide me with your answers in writing, or that the minister will get back to me with an answer, but I would like to discuss the whole Métis question. In Quebec, we have received a number of requests for recognition.

How does one proceed to have one’s Métis status recognized? Has the department established a process of some kind, particularly in light of the Supreme Court’s decision in Powley?

[Michael Wernick]

Yes, the department does have a process in place in response to the Powley decision. This is precisely one of the responsibilities of the Federal Interlocutor. Plans and agreements have been worked out with Métis organizations to create member registries. However, the process has raised some legal issues of a constitutional nature. There are dozens of cases before the courts seeking a definition of a Métis and a decision as to the rights and nature of the Métis. What we have come up with here is a pragmatic, workable solution. We are working with a number of organizations representing non-registered individuals and non-registered Métis and Aboriginals. We are working with pretty much everyone we can to press economic, social and educational issues. I think that it will be up to the courts to settle the more basic, fundamental questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You still have two minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

No, I’m fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Alright then.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chair, concerning Rapid Lake, could you suggest the name of someone with whom I might discuss the situation? You’ll provide me with a name in writing? Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much. Mrs. Crowder now has the floor.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you.

Just following up on the infrastructure question, did I understand you to say, on the ones I listed, those being the Oneida long-term care, the Louis Bull lift station and the St. Martin water control structure, that if I contact your office, you'll give me an update on them?

[Michael Wernick]

Yes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Perhaps I'm not understanding the numbers, but on schedule 1 to the appropriation bill in supplementary estimates (B), on page 46 under line 7(b), there's a substantial increase in the amount of loans that the minister may guarantee pursuant. I just wondered if that is in line of some anticipated settlements of some very large claims.

[Michael Wernick]

No, if I have the right amount, it's actually back-stopping housing loans. One of the problems with reserves is that it's difficult to secure a loan because the assets can't be seized, so the minister offers guarantees to the lender, and there's a default rate and so on.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

That's in anticipation of--

[Michael Wernick]

We've just gone through a large re-basing to raise the ceiling on how many loans can be issued at any one time. They revolve in and out. It was in anticipation of doing more housing business.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay, good.

On page 152 of supplementary estimates (B) there was an amount of money that was allocated for the Peguis First Nation Treaty Entitlement Agreement, and it was turned down by the community. Does money just get put in reserve for them until they are able to work through a community process? They don't lose out just because they...?

[Michael Wernick]

That's one of the reasons it's difficult to give Parliament and parliamentary committees an accurate snapshot and why we have this discussion every time about planned spending. The money that tends to move across from fiscal year to fiscal year is precisely for large settlements and specific claims--a big lump of money will arrive in one year and ratification doesn't happen. We normally get complete cooperation from the Department of Finance and Treasury Board to simply move it over into the next year if indeed the settlement comes through.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

There is a cap, isn't there, on the amount of money a department can project into the future?

[Michael Wernick]

That's for basic operating dollars, like salary and overhead and maintenance. We've never had a problem, when there is a litigation settlement or a claim settlement, getting the money out. It's just sometimes complicated to report it to Parliament.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Can I come back to that number that I asked the minister about, money that was transferred--

[Michael Wernick]

Can I just clarify on Peguis? Neil is correcting me on that.

There were actually two settlements with the Peguis community. This is the treaty land one, which is going ahead. It's not the specific claim.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay. This looks like an in-and-out on here. Oh, it just moves from one vote to another, okay.