Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 4th, 2009

[Christine Cram]

Mr. Chairman, I'm not aware of any assets that are being contemplated in such a review. As this committee is probably aware, INAC doesn't actually own assets, meaning infrastructure. In first nations communities, those assets are owned by those first nations.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

No. I'm just saying that this is what the finance minister has identified. INAC is one of the four departments that he has identified.

Secondly, where are we with regard to post-secondary education? As I understand it, there's a consultation process being undertaken. There is some talk about restructuring the program, redesigning the program. This has caused a lot of angst in a lot of first nations communities that currently deliver post-secondary education. They don't believe there are enough resources, but in many cases they find it fairly successful in terms of those that do get the funding.

Could you give us an update on that?

[Christine Cram]

Thank you for that question. I think you asked that question when we were here for main estimates as well.

There are two things that we have under way. One is that we received an audit on post-secondary education, and we've developed a management action plan to address that. The second is the review that was announced in Budget 2008.

We have spent a lot of time looking at internal information, as well as at other expert information, and now we are reaching out to the Assembly of First Nations and other regional first nations organizations to discuss how we should launch an engagement process with them to discuss both implementation of the audit action plan and what improvements--

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Is engagement the same as consultation?

[Christine Cram]

I use the word “engagement” because, as you may be aware, many first nations challenge the use of consultation and say they don't wish a certain discussion or whatever to be considered a consultation because of confusion with the actual duty to consult. I use “engagement” as meaning I don't know whether we'll start with information sharing, and then we'll get into some discussions, but I don't want to put the first nations into the position of being in agreement that that is defined as a consultation.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Okay.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have half a minute.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I'm good. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Russell.

Now we'll go to Mr. Rickford for five minutes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

I want to make just one brief comment. I appreciate that you used the words “foundational piece” in focusing on performance. I think that's going to help all of us identify where resources ought to go when we talk about working with the authorities and the first nations in establishing priorities moving forward.

I know that in the Kenora riding, one of the things that we continue to try to do is to look at how students leaving high school on reserves, particularly on the isolated ones, can come out with degrees of equivalency that allow them to avoid having to do a lot of the pre-courses that are often required to get into substantive degrees. I think that's a really important benefit moving forward.

The good news, of course, on the education front is that, while I appreciate Madam Crowder's comments earlier that there are schools in need of serious repair, I've seen a number in my own extensive travels that would suggest that there are some really great new schools in communities across Canada.

Furthermore, since 2006 we have seriously renovated or replaced more than 90 schools, and in the last eight months we have announced the construction of 10 brand-new schools. One of them may very well have been the one that my colleague was referring to. This is addressing an issue that goes back, of course, a couple of decades.

My question, then--and considerations for resources may be a part of this--Christine, is whether you can tell us a little bit more about what other factors affect the delivery of education services to first nations. In particular, could you comment on the isolated communities--I have 25 communities in my riding not accessible by road--and identify some of the differences between first nations education and provincial education models?

I think I'll just start with that.

[Christine Cram]

Okay. I'm going to ask my colleague, Mrs. Keenan, to respond.

[Kathleen Keenan]

One of the most important factors in school success has to do with the nature of the community in which that school is located. It's not just the status of the family; it's the socio-economic status of the census metropolitan area in which the school is located.

Those challenges are common to first nations schools as they are to provincial communities. The challenges that first nations schools face, particularly in remote communities and fly-in communities, are ones that are very similar to what the non-aboriginal population would face there, too.

The remoteness factor, the question of recruiting teachers to come to communities that aren't necessarily ones they all aspire to work in, the ability to actually offer the kinds of courses that allow them to go on to post-secondary with the numbers of students in the higher grades--the same differences exist between the city of Ottawa and 50 miles outside of Ottawa.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

But I think we are talking about degrees here, it's pretty safe to say.

[Kathleen Keenan]

Yes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I spent eight years of my life living in isolated communities, some of the most remote in Canada. While it's safe to say there are comparisons, there are clearly degrees of this comparison, I think, relative to today's conversation.

[Kathleen Keenan]

Very much so. It's a question that's particularly difficult for first nations schools, but it's also a question for provincial governments and provincial ministries of education to struggle with. How do you make a curriculum that's relevant? How do you take account of the particular skill sets that are more appropriate to remote and isolated communities than to a large urban area?

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I'm a big proponent, obviously, of the kinds of education programs or health and social programs that can occur before school and can arm students with the kind of education that can get them into some great programs. We're seeing some great results. More first nations students are becoming doctors. The Northern Ontario School of Medicine just graduated six first nations physicians. We're very pleased with that.

If the Government of Canada funding were taking into account...across other departments, other sources--and I'm thinking of the aboriginal head start program, our commitments to maternal-child health, early childhood development--how would these funding gaps that are being advanced in some of our discussion change that? Can you comment at all? Does it look different if we look more comprehensively at what the departments are doing?

[Christine Cram]

That would change the numbers, but we absolutely agree with you that we think investments in early childhood education would be extremely beneficial. The research shows that every dollar you invest in early childhood is going to have the biggest payoff in terms of remaining school success.

I guess one of the challenges in the federal government is that there are a number of different programs that have been established for a number of different purposes. What we would like to see--and that's us and what we've been looking at doing--is having it more closely linked with the schools. Now people come at early childhood from different perspectives. For some it's from a health perspective. Some of it's from, really, an employment perspective of the parents. We think there are some advantages to looking at how you could look at all those different programs and perhaps have them more closely linked to supporting improved education.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I think that's a great idea. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Rickford.

Mr. Lévesque, you have five minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For once, we can say: “Good morning, ladies”; usually, we say: “Good morning, ladies and gentlemen”.

On pages 12 and 13, you give averages for ordinary schools in the provinces and territories. That seems to be your basis for determining the approximate cost per student for the first nations. In your calculations, do you take into account the fact that in the case of first nations, at least two languages are taught from the start, which is not true of the other provinces? In Ontario, the language is English; in Quebec, it is French. In these provinces, only one language is taught. There is also the isolation of these communities compared to cities. Because of municipal taxes, the cities develop recreational activities and sports within the school system.

I believe it is the role of first nations schools to offer recreational and sports activities that are a part of the school system. Do you think the method used in determining an average for the first nations compared to the average for a province or a territory is appropriate?

[Christine Cram]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Lévesque.

No. We are providing this information just as an illustration. Averages cannot be used to calculate exactly what is required. The provinces have different formulas, and they include different things. In British Columbia, for example, the province includes an amount for languages. However, this varies from province to province. So we should not take into account just the average, but rather look at the data for a school board that is very close by, because this will take into account the geographic location, the isolation of the community and its socio-economic situation. These figures are provided only as an illustration, as a broad outline. However, to calculate exactly what is required, I think we have to look at each school board.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

In my region, I am surrounded by several communities, which I go and visit. I realize the tremendous difference between first nations schools and schools in cities. The first nations do not even have enough money to pay the teachers, who generally come from provincial and territorial school boards, and are asked to go and teach in first nations schools. The same conditions cannot apply. In addition, the first nations have to hire another teacher to complement the program given in their language and culture. There is a flagrant shortage in this area.

Have you gotten to that point in your consultations with the first nations designed to correct the system? To what extent does the 2% prevent you from taking action?

[Christine Cram]

We are having discussions with the first nations at the moment, both nationally and regionally. In British Columbia, for example, they have some ideas as to a fair formula or their financial requirements. It is not necessarily the same type of formula as the one put forward by Quebec.

The first nations want something that works in their province. So we really have to look at the situation province by province, because comparisons must be made with the province, but also within the province and with school boards as well.

The 2% provides more money every year for the department. However, as we discussed, we also have other programs. At the moment, we are working on what we call phase 2 to see what we can do in the area of education. One of the questions we are working on is a comparison with the other provinces.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Lévesque. Unfortunately, your time is up.

Mr. Payne, for five minutes.