Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 4th, 2009

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd also like to thank the witnesses for appearing this morning and for the information that you've provided in your report.

I want to refer back to Mr. Duncan, where he talked about the studies on page 8. You also referred on page 8 to some research work that was done. Is that the same study or the same research work that is referred to on page 4? On page 4, the first paragraph in English says that “research does not consistently conclude that higher levels of investment lead to improved student outcomes”.

[Kathleen Keenan]

No. These would be international assessments that have been done.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you.

That kind of leads into the next question I have. Could you expand upon that research? Who did the research, when was it done, and what were the results that were shown from that?

[Kathleen Keenan]

There are a number of studies that have been done internationally that look at improving student outcomes. Generally, it's how the money is to be used that is critical. It's not simply more money. Internationally, what we've seen to be particularly significant is investment in the quality and calibre of teachers and in early and critical investment in students who are falling behind. So it's particularly around literacy and numeracy.

That's very much reflected in the new program design. Those are based on the kind of analysis that's been done to date internationally and what educators and researchers have seen to make the most difference in student outcomes. The whole emphasis on performance measurement is an international trend, but it's very much reflective of that kind of research.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

You say this was an international study.

[Kathleen Keenan]

Not one, many.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Involving numerous countries, I presume.

[Kathleen Keenan]

Groups of countries, and also individual countries when they've looked at the kinds of things that have made a difference. We'll see that coming out of the United States, with the increased emphasis on the new president's focus on education. It's going to be very much about results, investing in teachers and investing in early remediation of students.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Were any kinds of financial numbers shown to be different from one case to another?

[Kathleen Keenan]

The research I've looked at didn't attribute amounts per student, which, in an international context, wouldn't make a lot of sense. But in terms of reinvestment, those were seen as definitely the priority areas.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

Also, in terms of education and renovations to schools or new schools for first nations, do you have the numbers since 2006?

[Christine Cram]

Are you looking nationally or for Quebec?

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Nationally, but if you have Quebec too, that's fine.

[Christine Cram]

For Quebec...and your year was since 2006.

[Céline Laverdière]

Between 2004 and 2009, the capital expenditures for education amounted to $24,562,000 for the 22 communities in Quebec.

[Christine Cram]

I'm sorry, I can't locate the Canada ones, but I can certainly get the committee those numbers.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Okay. I would appreciate that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Do you have some more questions?

I'll pass it to Mr. Duncan.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

It's not directly related to your comments, but in 2006 the FNEC and the AFN for Quebec and Labrador signed an MOU with INAC, with the minister of the day, to receive $150,000 to implement the memorandum of understanding and $365,000 for a study of the feasibility of creating a first nations post-secondary institute. Can you give us an update on developments?

[Céline Laverdière]

The memorandum of understanding was signed during the First Nations Socioeconomic Forum, which was held in Mashteuiatsh in October 2006. There were two objectives: to work together on a study to establish a second-level system, and subsequently, to look at the whole issue of jurisdiction.

Some work was done and submitted to the assistant deputy minister, Ms. Cram, by the First Nations Education Council.

Work was also done with respect to the department's commitment to the FNEC regarding a building. I know that the First Nations Education Council has had many discussions with institutions. We are waiting to hear where the First Nations Education Council would like this institution to be located. I know that two or three weeks ago, Ms. Bastien, the Executive Director of the First Nations Education Council, wrote to my director general of the Quebec regional office to schedule a meeting on this matter. The date of the meeting will be determined within the next few days.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Ms. Laverdière, Mr. Duncan and Mr. Payne.

Ms. Crowder, you have five minutes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you.

It appears the minister is going to be making some announcements today about funding, and he's talking about a new approach in that the government is not prepared to waste time on unproductive and unsuccessful processes.

I apologize for having to read this off the BlackBerry, because it's emerging news, but the government is intent on rolling out pilot projects in education and so on. He's talking about partnerships with provincial governments and first nations. He says what he's not prepared to do is have a system where each schoolhouse has its own school board. It's not practical and the results are no good. He goes on to talk about various other initiatives.

You talked about the two new education programs that were being launched in December, and I wonder if in assessing those programs you looked at what could be potentially unproductive and unsuccessful, if you have any criteria to define unproductive and unsuccessful?

[Christine Cram]

That wasn't the approach we took in designing those two programs. As Ms. Keenan said, we looked at international as well as domestic research and designed two new programs for what we thought would result in improved student outcomes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

If this is the approach the department is now taking, the current level of funding won't be affected, but any new initiatives will not go to so-called unproductive and unsuccessful initiatives. So if we have schools that are struggling, in part because of consistent underfunding, and they're deemed unproductive and unsuccessful, how will they ever achieve comparable standards when they're not eligible for additional funding?

[Kathleen Keenan]

The new programs do not look at the school's success. Rather, they look at the plans for improvement. It's very much based on student success plans, setting targets. How these school authorities try to make a difference to the targets is up to them.