Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 4th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

When you say it's catching on, in terms of percentage, is there a—

[Kathleen Keenan]

In terms of the proposals, we had expected that in the first year there would probably be about a quarter of first nations schools that would be covered by proposals. In fact, the number of proposals that came in covered about three-quarters of first nations schools. So it suggests that the degree of interest that's there to actually get on with making results is very high.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay. Would you say there is any reluctance at all to move to...better pedagogical excellence and investments? It seems to me that part of the answer here is in fact investing in the kinds of things that concentrate on that sort of enhanced performance, as well as funding, and the other things that contribute to those outcomes. In other words, would it be fair to say that we're getting enough investment in those things that are in fact moving performance ahead in good measure?

[Kathleen Keenan]

The number of proposals that came in would suggest that there's a very high degree of interest in moving there. This is really about changing the ways in which the relationship between the department and first nations educators has functioned, so there is going to be some time required for the complete cultural change. The quality of the proposals varied somewhat. Those who are already first movers tended to be in a better position to make the case for what they wanted to do and how they were going to do that. What it suggests to us is that we need to put in place the kind of support so that others who want to move there are able to get there more quickly than people who started 10 years ago and had time to build towards it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I think you referenced at one point, since 1970, the evolution of greater leadership on the part of first nations communities to take charge of education responsibilities.

In terms of this emerging emphasis on outcomes and student performance, how would you describe how that has evolved? Is it recent? Has it been ongoing? Has this been a long and gradual process, or are we looking at something in the last decade?

[Kathleen Keenan]

My historical interpretation of it is that the interest in doing well by students has been there since the beginning. What's different now is what people see as required in order to do well by students.

Thirty years ago, many would have thought that jurisdiction was the answer. I think people now have a more sophisticated approach to it and see that this, in and of itself, may not be sufficient. This isn't just in first nations schools; this is true for all education.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Yes, across all education, I would say. Very good.

Thank you very much. That's all I had.

Do you have any questions, Mr. Lemay?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Yes, thank you.

I listened intently because this is a matter of great interest to me. I believe, and others share this view, that education is the road to freedom. I would like to understand how specialized education works. Is there a dedicated budget for it? My question is somewhat ambivalent. For one, we know that a number of first nations dip into Quebec's budget to send students to Ontario, for instance. Is this normal? Should not the regional office of the Ontario Ministry of Education be covering these costs? These are Quebec students crossing the border. I would imagine you are aware of the situation. I would like you to explain this to me.

[Céline Laverdière]

I will try to do so to the best of my abilities and quickly.

There is indeed a specific budget for special education. As to the budget, a formula is used and funds granted to first nations to meet the specific needs of certain students who encounter genuine problems in their communities.

With respect to first nations students attending provincial schools or schools in other provinces, like for instance Micmacs and Algonquins, the schools that welcome these students, and the first nations they come from, must negotiate tuition fees. In most cases, the first nations are the ones negotiating costs and using the money in their envelope.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

That would mean that if they send two or three students to study elsewhere, and their tuition fees amount to between $10, 000 and $12,000 per year, this amount would be withdrawn from the envelope.

[Céline Laverdière]

It's a bit more complex than that because some first nations have five-year agreements. Agreements are reached with the school boards. Moreover, there is the added dimension of parental choice. In some communities, when parents decide to send their children to study elsewhere, the first nations do not cover the costs. So, the parents must do so. It is really quite complex. There is no simple answer. Each first nation has its own way of doing things.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

Mr. Rickford, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

I just want to return to the last question I had asked and give the witnesses an opportunity to expound on it a little bit more, since I think it's so important to understand that there are other sources coming from the Government of Canada that we must take into account when we try to think about or consider how to put students in the best position starting school and obviously then to complete high school.

I'm really involved in maternal child health and early childhood development, because I see these as a great way for starting school off on the right foot and making sure that these are culturally appropriate and relevant programs. In some of the communities that I've worked in prior to being elected, and Pikangikum is a great example, Christine, we did what you were talking about. The core and curriculum training.... I know that the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs does a very good job at this, of making sure that people have that kind of training in place so that the maternal-child health and early childhood development programs are strong in their communities and that in K4 and K5, where there are a lot of students, they have teachers' assistants who are adequately trained. Can you talk a little bit more about the importance of that as you consider it in your department?

Finally, I want to encourage you to think more about the need to make sure the departments are talking to each other for this broader platform around education. Obviously, it deals with social and health determinants as well, all important considerations on how to build paradigms for education.

[Christine Cram]

Maybe I can start by talking about what the federal government has done to try to coordinate some of those early childhood development programs, and then Kathleen can talk about the future and what our thinking is.

In the federal government there are a number of programs, and you may be aware of this, in different departments. There are some in HRSDC, there are some in INAC, there are some in Health Canada, and there are some in the Public Health Agency of Canada. The challenge is how to get them all to work together in the best way. As you pointed out in the example of Pikangikum, the government has tried to organize itself to make them work together, but actually the success that's occurred is on the ground; communities have found ways to make them all work together, and work together as well with other programming that may be available. In some cases there's provincial programming as well. I think that's where the locus is most effective to try to bring these together.

As I mentioned earlier, because we're coming at it from an education perspective, we want to see it better linked to the education system, whereas Health Canada comes at it from the view that they want it linked with healthy mothers-healthy child—it all goes to the same end—and HRSDC comes at it from more of an employment focus. I think communities, as you mentioned, have been very successful in bringing it together.

Maybe I can just ask Kathleen to speak about where we hope to go.

[Kathleen Keenan]

Much of what we've seen in the research world, and as well what we see in having provincial ministries of education, is increasing emphasis on learning readiness. Much of that has to do with early childhood development. We would think for phase two we would want to look at what opportunities there are to move together, with different departments leading in their particular mandate areas, but doing so in such a way that the clear focus is on bringing whatever resources and programs there are together and looking at whether there are any enhancements required to ensure that when the child gets to the school they're at a level playing field and they don't have two years of language or literacy to catch up before they're actually ready to start grade one.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I think this is the important point that needs to be made.

Christine, I appreciate your insight and commentary on the fact that it is generally the community that puts their children and then students in the best position to understand how all of those things work. Obviously, we're talking about massive departments and the distinctions between employment, education, and health, but at the community level they can, importantly, all come together. A lot of the work that we do in some of the education authorities and health authorities is tying them in and hosting forums and round tables on how to ensure that we're getting the best value. I think the question of resources is highly dependent on our ability at the community level to make sure that those things are all--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Would you wrap it up if you can, please?

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

--brought together and discussed thoroughly in such a way to maximize or optimize the outcome for the children and students.

I think I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You are out of time. I don't know that it was really a question at all, but thank you for being here as a witness today. That was very good.

Now we will go to Madam Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I just wanted to correct a couple of pieces of information. First of all, the announcement today that Mr. Rickford had a point of order on is in the public domain, in the National Post. It really isn't our problem if the Conservative members don't know that the minister is making an announcement. Also, it's not about economic development. It's talking about agreements with provinces on education, health issues, and the private sector on economic development. I just want to correct that piece of information for the record.

On the second piece of information, I'm not sure if I can correct this. It would be interesting to see what happens when the Parliamentary Budget Officer and the department get together, because in the PBO's report, they actually say there are 803 school assets in various physical conditions; 726 schools have been reported as permanent structures, whereas 77 have been reported as temporary. Only about 49% of the schools are in good condition. I just wanted to put that on the record.

On the third piece of information, I understood Ms. Cram to say there are differences in formulas across the country, and that the one in B.C. meets B.C.'s needs. I think B.C. would dispute that it meets their needs. I'm referring again back to the First Nations Education Steering Committee. They are talking, again, about the gaps that I have already talked about. They are saying there is approximately 17% less funding, but they also say that in the ongoing negotiations between B.C. and the department, the federal government's latest offer does not reflect the need for comparable funding for first nations schools, nor does it reflect the additional costs that will be associated with the implementation of jurisdiction, such as increased governance and administrative costs.

We are hearing you talk about performance standards. I want to make sure that the committee understands that in the first nations education jurisdiction, in fulfilling the promise, they indicate that school certification and standards have been implemented through the First Nations Schools Association since 2003. Teacher standards and certification were piloted in the fall of 2008; curriculum and exam standards were completed in 2008.

I'm hearing you say that it's all about performance. I'm sure Quebec is in the same boat. I would suggest, Mr. Chair, that it would be good to hear from the First Nations Education Steering Committee, because this is a model that the minister often touts as being a good model. I think it will be important to hear from them, but we have the performance standards in place.

What's the delay in getting the funding to British Columbia?

[Christine Cram]

I just want to comment on the PBO report, then I'll make my comments on B.C., and then I'll get to the last one. In terms of the—

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I don't want you to comment on the announcement. I was just correcting the record. If I have any time left, I have another question.

[Christine Cram]

Okay.

On the PBO report, the number I think I used was 462 schools. The PBO report took any education-related facilities. They took teacherages, machine shops--they took everything.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I did say school assets.