Evidence of meeting #24 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was schools.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I'm very sorry, I don't know specifically what that announcement was about today.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
I think we're actually getting into an area there, Mr. Clarke, that the witnesses really aren't in a position to speak about. But by all means, carry on on the education front and we'll see how we do.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Sure.
Post-secondary education has been raised a number of times. There is currently a review of post-secondary education. Could you tell us why the review is going on now, what the reason is behind this, and what conclusions have been reached?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I believe we were before this committee talking about post-secondary education a month or so ago, so we spoke quite a bit about post-secondary education. But when we look at the data on post-secondary education, what we are seeing is a decline in the number of students being assisted, and we think that's an issue. So we wish to find ways of improving post-secondary student participation.
We also had an audit, which came out a couple of months ago, and we've developed an action plan. So we want to work on both things. The audit looked at how the department was managing the program and we want to look at that issue, as well as do a broader review on the program and try to find ways of improving access for students.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Just going back to the issue of schools and building and renovations, what is the life expectancy, on average, of a first nations school?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I don't have the number right in my head. The Parliamentary Budget Officer did some research on the issue of what you should estimate to be the longevity of a school and they came up with a number that's a Canada standard: 40 years. I don't know what their average would be. We would have some schools that are definitely older than 40 years and we would have some schools that are younger. I would say, for the most part, that we feel the longevity of infrastructure in first nations communities is less than we would like it to be because it is generally less than what the average is in the rest of Canada. It's an issue we have to address.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Very good.
Thank you, Mr. Clarke and Madam Cram.
We'll now go to Mr. Russell, and then I'm going to take one of the government spots for a question as well.
Mr. Russell.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
Thank you.
The content is one thing, in terms of the announcement, but, Mr. Chair, I'm just shocked at the language, to a certain extent. It's so patronizing, with stuff like—
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
Yes, it has to do with.... As the report from Mrs. Cram states, there are a whole bunch of factors that impact on education, not just funding, but socio-economic conditions, language issues, and poverty. All of these things affect education, and I would suggest attitudes affect education as well.
The government wants to move to a more market-oriented approach. The government is also keen to reform....
You can't impose, I would say, Mr. Chair—
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
You cannot impose. The time for that is over.
Anyway, let me move on.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Mr. Russell, just stand by for a second.
A point of order, Mr. Rickford.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
I'm concerned, Mr. Chair, that we're talking about an announcement that we have not, in fairness, had the content of. Neither are the witnesses here, as you rightly pointed out, in a position to answer that or any of the questions concerning that announcement. So to the extent that the announcement raises issues for this committee to discuss at some other later point, I think doing so would be appropriate, and we could save commentary and speculation on those things until they become relevant at a specific committee meeting. Otherwise, this is just for the cameras, and I don't think that's what we all want to do.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
I'm making a general point, and I will move towards a more directed question, I would say.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
In terms of capital expenditures, how many new schools are on the list for construction, and how many do you have on the list for major or minor repairs? How much in resources, in terms of dollars and cents, is being put towards second- and third-level services, in terms of the education portfolio?
Is that direct enough, Mr. Chair?
Conservative
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
In terms of the first question about how many are on the list, I can certainly mention the ones that relate to Canada's economic action plan. The announcement was $200 million for 10 new schools and three major renovations. There are, in addition to that, other schools that are on the list in the long-term capital plan, and I believe that long-term capital plan was shared with this committee. But I will get back to you about the ones that are in the plan for this year, in addition to those under Canada's economic action plan.
In terms of your second question, on how much we spend on second- and third-level services, I don't have those numbers. I don't know to what extent we could get the numbers, because we provide blocks that are divided not by level of service but rather by activity. We could give you what we have, in terms of how we break down education funding.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Thank you, Mr. Russell.
I just want to follow up on a couple of issues, in fact, that arose from your earlier comments, on the uptake of the programs for improved performance. You mentioned in your opening remarks that funding isn't in fact the only contributing factor to those better outcomes.
First of all, to what degree would you say there is the uptake, the interest on the part of first nations communities to in fact embrace more of that kind of thinking, in terms of their advancing education outcomes?
Director General, Education Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The new programs, really, are catching pace with leaders in improving first nations education outcomes. There have already been a number of communities that have moved forward with the kind of results-based focus that the new programs support. Those programs provide the wherewithal for those schools to enhance what they're doing and also to allow others to follow in their leadership.