Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 17th, 2009

[Chief Peter Johnston]

To a certain degree, it would. However, as we always witness when we go to Ottawa on certain other functions, the Yukon self-government agreements are cutting edge. They're outside the box. A lot of those recommendations would be relevant. But the Yukon first nations have a whole different reality with respect to our powers of jurisdiction and the opportunities we have.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I think you're right. We understand the uniqueness of the different agreements across the country. But from a principle perspective, you want to see full and fair implementation of what was negotiated, whether it was in 1993 or well before that.

It's staggering that 48% to 60% of all employment in the Yukon is government related. There are lots of arguments. You read some books that ask whether there is any sovereignty without economic sovereignty. You can describe economic sovereignty in different ways. Living off the land and putting food on your table, that's a certain type of economic sovereignty. I heard the challenges the grand chief laid before us.

If we have full implementation of the land claims, will you have the tools to generate wealth from your own lands, from your own traditional territories? It seems to me there has to be some way to generate wealth. If there's going to be sovereignty exercised, don't you have to have that wealth generated from your own lands or from your own waters? Some of it could be from the air, with wind power or whatever. I'm just wondering, is that a fair statement to make?

[Chief Peter Johnston]

We're the only governments in Canada that have to create their own source revenues to fulfill the government's needs and obligations. Ideally, we need economic development within the communities, because that's where the self-based governments are located. We have to venture outside of our traditional areas to invest and to ensure that our government is going to get the feedback. Ideally, we need to be investing in the community right now within our own traditional areas, where we have the biggest jurisdiction and also the biggest opportunity. That's where all our resources in regard to our citizenship are.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Are there any examples of impact and benefit agreements that are working for some of the first nations communities? In Labrador, there were impact and benefit agreements negotiated between Nunatsiavut and Vale Inco and between the Innu and Vale Inco. Is that happening in the Yukon?

[Gary Wilson]

There are several agreements in place right now with different first nations--the Kaska--and we're currently in negotiation with two mining companies.

I think they're getting better. I mean, first nations are starting to understand the benefits that can come from that.

I believe that you, certainly, are moving forward quite strongly in oil and gas.

I think there are lots of opportunities in relation to resources, but economic development is as much about creating jobs in community as it is about wealth generation, about whether you can create wealth in community. You can through large resource projects--mines, oil and gas--but they don't always happen, and they don't happen overnight.

So it's the creation of jobs in community versus the creation of wealth, as Teslin has been very good at doing. They've gone outside of their community to create wealth, because it's just a matter of economies of scale. When you start talking about economic development in the north and in the Yukon, it's this huge, wide continuum of things and factors that don't always happen at the time you want them to happen.

I'm dealing with a group right now, working with Liard First Nation on a mining agreement. The mine is not likely to come into play for another 30 years, just because the amount of infrastructure that has to be developed to get it to that point is so incredibly large. It's a huge ore body, but at the end of the day, it's not going to happen overnight.

[The Acting Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

Now we'll go on to Mr. Dreeshen.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much.

I'm a new member to this committee.This is the first opportunity for me to actually address some of the concerns, and I'm very interested in hearing things.

I know that we did have one witness back in Ottawa who said that the people who are south of 60 don't really understand what is taking place. Of course, some of us think that perhaps those who are south of the 49th parallel don't understand what is taking place.

I think, too, in the discussions that I've heard this morning, we do have a disconnect sometimes between perhaps the territorial governments and the aboriginal communities. I think that's what you have been trying to address.

Chief Carvill, you mentioned the brain drain and the types of concerns you have with respect to your communities. I'm wondering if you could perhaps expand upon that somewhat.

[Grand Chief Andy Carvill]

By brain drain, I guess I'm referring to the fact that a lot of our people in the communities work in the communities and get some of the experience that can help further their careers in the communities working for first nations governments. Then, when other governments come along, because they're able to offer better pensions, better employment opportunities, a lot of these people who have all these talents then leave the communities, in some cases, and go to work for other governments.

On the one hand, that can be seen as a plus. On the other hand, it leaves us in the communities again struggling to build the capacity we need to strengthen our governance.

Just quickly, as well, some comments were made earlier by Mr. Rickford with respect to senior bureaucrats and capacity. There is an area in the agreement that speaks about bureaucracy and governance, referring to the Yukon government and the federal government as well. A certain percentage of first nations individuals are supposed to be employed in these senior positions, senior managers and whatnot. That's not happening either. It's something that definitely has to be looked at. We need to start bringing this percentage in line with the agreements that we've entered into.

[Stephen Mills]

I'd like to speak a bit on the issue of brain drain. One of the objectives set out in chapter 22 of our final agreements is the concept of a representative of public service. We're trying to train our members to work within our governments. We're trying to train them to work in other governments. It seems that Grand Chief Carvill is right. It seems that when it comes to competitive salaries, we tend to lose a bit. Part of our first nations approach has been that we will hire the qualified people to work with our government, whether they're first nation or not. We are also trying to hold up our citizens to get them out there, to complete their high school education, to go into post-secondary education. We know we may lose them for a period of time. A lot of our members come back. Having that kind of experience is something that we have found makes them much more valuable to our own governments.

I think where we run into difficulties is in the number of people we're able to train and the type of environment we give them in our communities. When we talk about infrastructure in our communities, we need to develop infrastructure. We need to make our communities more attractive for our citizens, as well as other professionals.

I think we also struggle with some of the funding programs. We talked about post-secondary education. We're not getting there because we're having more people make it to the post-secondary level. That's part of the strain. It's not a bad issue; it's just that we're hitting a wall. When it comes to funding through Industry Canada and HRDC, we have difficulty trying to fit our people through those holes or have them go over those hurdles to qualify for certain programming.

I think we're dealing with good issues. We are having better success, but we're still struggling with some of the funding programs that are out there so that we can move our people up to that next level when it comes to education.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

The other point, then, is expanding from where you are. Are you finding that those who have the extra training, the extra educational training, are actually able to tie in more with your traditional beliefs and culture because they're more in tune with the needs of your communities? Or does it go the other way?

[Chief Peter Johnston]

I believe that as a first nations people, we are gifted with that as we grow up within our own societies. You can't undermine how important education is. It builds confidence within the citizens. It gives you the opportunity to expand your horizons. It gives you every opportunity to engage in a global society. Education is very fundamental to our people.

As I made my statement before, when you have both cultures within your hands, your traditional and the contemporary, you're able to go anywhere in the world. We talked about the fact that we have more people engaging in post-secondary education. However, we have limited funding, and now with tuition increases and all these other things, unfortunately, we're not able to give every citizen the opportunity for higher learning. As we recognize it, education is life-long learning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Dreeshen.

The next member is Mr. Gaudet, who has five minutes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

My first question is for Victoria Fred.

Earlier, you talked about the administration of justice. Where is the biggest obstacle, on the criminal side or the penal side? Do you want an administration that is totally specific and adapted to first nations culture?

[Victoria Fred]

In terms of what we're dealing with right now.... One of the challenges we had in dealing with an effective and efficient process, if you will, is that within government we found the departments were a bit fragmented. There's a lack of recognition that the agreements are agreements with the crown, they're not agreements with departments. So that created obstacles for us to move forward in a good and efficient manner. We always impressed upon governments that we needed to have all departments at the negotiation table because it affected those departments.

It's always to ensure that any decisions being developed within government that affect our lives, our jurisdiction, the success of our relationship...we want to inform that process. We want to make sure that we remove those obstacles, whether they're policies or moving a government mentality, if you will. These are government-to-government relationships.

We've made some progress. We want to use this experience that Teslin has achieved over the 12 years as a way to open up from that experience, to remove those obstacles for those who are coming behind, because there are other Yukon first nations that are negotiating administration of justice.

At the end of the day, it's about working from a government-to-government relationship. We want to ensure that we can coexist and that our laws will uphold an environment where our people can work, be accountable, and be respected. So that was one of the biggest obstacles.

Then those sort of trickle into policies. We found that some of the policies were incongruent. They were not in line with the way the agreements were meant to be. We found one policy, the first nations policing policy that was removed from north of 60, would have undermined elements of our agreement for us to move forward. There was no consultation about the impact of that policy, on how it would impact on the work we have done thus far.

So it makes us start at the starting line sometimes, which is not a good use of resources and time. The impact is that we lose people in the community, we lose confidence in government relationships, and we question the effectiveness of doing business in this fashion.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much.

The floor is now Mr. Clarke's for five minutes, followed by Mr. Bevington.

Mr. Clarke.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank the witnesses for being here.

This is going to the chiefs. For me, economic development is very interesting and seeing the progress of the first nations. My home nation is in Saskatchewan. They've taken big strides economically with an urban reserve and other business ventures.

What really caught my attention, Chief, is that you were mentioning some of your businesses, like Coca-Cola, for instance. Would you be able to tell me when you started your economic diversification and how much money you bring in, say, yearly? I think it's more or less a tribute to see first nations come forward and offer a lot of economic stimulus, not even locally and to your home community, but you also probably delve into the southern part of Canada as well, and probably Whitehorse as well. Can you break it down further so I can get a better understanding?

[Chief Peter Johnston]

We created our economic development arm back in 1998. The focus was to buy well-established companies, blue chip companies, if you will. We do have a lot of people working diligently on our behalf to find opportunities. There are opportunities being presented to us every day; it's just a matter of finding ones that are going to provide not only stability but also a long-term kickback to first nations in order to provide, like I said, funding for government and programs and services. We have only 450 people within our community. We do have the Alaska Highway running through our backyard, but we don't have the ability for a population. We've had to invest in Whitehorse. Primarily, as Yukon first nations, this is where all the business of the day happens. From some of the opportunities that we've seen coming through, such as Coca-Cola, business and office supply centres, it seems like a well-diversified portfolio to get into.

Recently we've gotten into some waste management properties, which have provided us with some excellent returns--upwards of 23%. So working on behalf of our compensation dollars, which are minimal, to a certain degree, we've had to dig into our coffers in order to get these opportunities coming forward. Like I said, with any good investment there is diversification, and we're keeping our ears to the ground in regard to opportunities, not only in Canada but globally. We've invested in Kamloops and Kelowna, and also in downtown Calgary, not only to create a brand for the Teslin Tlingit Council, but also to ensure that we are in sectors that are going to provide us with that stable return on investment.

I'm not too sure if I captured all of your question, but I'd be more than willing to add more.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I was wondering how much gross revenue you've generated and how many people are now working for your companies.

[Chief Peter Johnston]

We have around 95 employees throughout our 12 businesses. We have a value of around $10 million, with very minimal debt. A lot of the investments we've gotten into are vendor-backed financing, so there is a commitment from the people that we're purchasing for, not only to ensure consistent management over a three- to five-year period, but also to ensure that the success continues. With that we're able to ensure that capacity is built along the way. We're almost to the point where we're able to kick back about $1 million to the first nation, which is huge. Ultimately, we need that number to be in the tens of millions of dollars, going over the period of time; however, having been in it for just over 12 years or so, we're very fortunate and also very optimistic about the growth we're going to see within the next five years.

Hopefully that answers some of your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have about 40 seconds left, Mr. Clarke.

[Grand Chief Andy Carvill]

I would just ask if one of the other....

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Perhaps Mr. Mills.

Go ahead. You can finish that up.

[Stephen Mills]

Thank you for your question.

Our company, through Air North as well as a number of our other investments, has approximately 300 employees. We probably have a value in the area of $15 million to $20 million as our own corporation, and we're profitable. For us, that was a key part of how we were developing our corporation. Our business plan was that we needed to have stability. As I said when I started my presentation, don't buy your local store. We're actually now assisting others in trying to increase the delivery of food and that into our community. We've been part of the design in putting money into such things as development of our cultural centre in our community. What we've been able to do, by diversifying and developing a really secure stream of income, is put money back into our community and create employment--in Whitehorse and Vancouver and other locations, but also in Old Crow. I think that's a much more successful model than what has happened in the past. Broke companies just don't hire anyone.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We do have three members left on the list. I'm aware that we're a little bit over time. Mind you, we started a little bit late, shortly after ten o'clock. Are the witnesses still okay for another three minutes of questions? Are you still okay time-wise? I'm cognizant of the fact that you expected to be here until only 11:30.