Evidence of meeting #43 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ken McKinnon  Chair of the Board, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board
Stephen Mills  Executive Committe Member, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board
Ian D. Robertson  Council Member, Yukon Land Use Planning Council

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Honourable members, witnesses and invited guests, welcome. This is the 43rd meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. On our agenda today is the consideration of barriers and challenges to economic development in the North.

Today we welcome representatives of two businesses and associations. The first witness represents the Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board.

First we have the representatives of the Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board. It's a pleasure to have with us Ken McKinnnon, who is the chair of the board. Of course, we welcome back Stephen Mills, whom we were able to meet when we were in the Yukon two weeks ago.

Our second organization today is represented by Mr. Ian Robertson, a council member with the Yukon Land Use Planning Council.

Before we begin with presentations, members will have seen on the orders of the day that we planned for committee business beginning at 12:30, so we have slightly less than an hour and a half to go through questions. We'll begin with presentations of up to 10 minutes from each of our two organizations, and then we'll go promptly to questions from members. In light of our tight agenda today, we'll stick very closely to the times for questions and answers as well.

Let's begin. Who wishes to lead off?

Mr. McKinnon, go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

Ken McKinnon Chair of the Board, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for inviting us.

Your press release of October 30, 2009, launching your comprehensive study of issues related to northern economic development, states that, “The Committee intends to focus on gaining a better understanding of the barriers and challenges northerners in the three territories face in promoting their economic well-being, and possible solutions to overcome those barriers”.

We'd like to try to make the case to you today that the Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board is one of those solutions you are seeking.

YESAB is totally unique in Canada in that it is a single made-for-Yukoners assessment process that applies throughout Yukon to all projects on all Yukon lands, and to the territorial, federal, and first nations governments.

How did this come about? It was mainly through the Yukon land claim and the insistence of the Yukon first nations people that there would effectively be no more Faros created in the Yukon.

Faro became the largest lead/zinc mine in the world in the 1970s. It was created with absolutely no consultation with the Ross River Dena, in whose traditional territory the mine was located, and no consultation with any other group of Yukoners. The cost of cleanup of this mine to the Canadian taxpayer is now estimated at anywhere between $500 million to $1 billion over a lifetime of some 50 to 100 years.

The Yukon first nations, under chapter 12 of the Yukon first nations Umbrella Final Agreement, demanded that federal legislation establish an assessment process that would apply to all lands of Yukon, so that no more Faros would ever take place on Yukon lands without going through a stringent and thorough assessment conducted by Yukoners.

So how are we doing? Since our inception some four years ago, our six offices throughout the Yukon have handled nearly 1,000 assessments. The average number of days for YESAB to complete an assessment is 34 days. We have been commended as presently outperforming all other assessment regimes across the north, and possibly across Canada.

I'd like now to reintroduce to someone you met in Whitehorse. He is Stephen Mills, my fellow executive committee member. As a negotiator for the Council of Yukon First Nations on the YESA Act, Stephen has been invaluable to our process since the very beginning of YESAB.

11:05 a.m.

Stephen Mills Executive Committe Member, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board

Thank you, Mr. McKinnon.

Thank you, honourable members and Chair, for inviting me back to appear before you in a slightly warmer location than Whitehorse when you were there. I only say “slightly”; it is a little chilly still.

I will just continue on what Mr. McKinnon had to say. YESAA replaced several formal and informal assessment processes when it came into force. It really did slice through some complex land ownership issues that were created partly from first nation final agreements, but also in association with the Canada-Yukon devolution agreement.

Some of the unique aspects of YESAA are that it looks not only at environmental effects, but at socio-economic effects, that it also integrates local and traditional knowledge into assessments, and that it provides for guaranteed opportunities to participate for all Yukoners, including first nations.

Another key aspect of YESAA is that it calls for timelines for all stages of assessment. As Mr. McKinnon mentioned, at our designated office levels, these timelines have I think all been met, and in most cases, exceeded—to the good, not to the bad.

Having said that I believe this process has worked very well over the last four years, I would add that there are some ways to improve it. At the current time, there are two different reviews taking place. There's a five-year review being conducted by the three parties to the Umbrella Final Agreement, those being the Government of Canada, the Yukon, and the Council of Yukon First Nations. We have participated in these reviews in providing input. We also have understood some of the concerns that have been raised, as well as some of the good things that have been identified as part of that review.

When we brought in our rules and started assessing, we promised Yukoners that we would go back out to Yukoners after a couple of years of practice and would vary our rules to fix any issues that came up. We have been doing that as well. We have reviewed our rules at the designated office level, because that's where we have around 1,000 assessments, and we are implementing some changes that we hope to have in place by the end of this fiscal year.

These changes are based on input from first nations and all the regulators of the other governments, as well as various environmental and industry groups, including the mining industry, the chamber of commerce, and other proponent groups. We believe these changes will improve the rules at the designated office level.

Part of our discussion here is around barriers and solutions. I want to identify a few.

One of the biggest barriers that we find involves capacity. First of all, first nations and even some of the governments, federal and territorial, are still getting used to this process after four years and are not always prepared to participate or to provide input into these assessments in a timely way. First nations are trying to participate in our assessments while trying also to implement their new governments.

Another issue around capacity is that we have five of our offices located out in communities throughout the Yukon. We find that we're competing for a very small skilled labour pool in each community. We're competing against first nations and other governments, as well as private industry, in trying to get skilled, qualified people to work in our offices. As a result, we've had to look at importing people from other parts of the Yukon as well as people from outside the Yukon to fill these positions.

This has only caused more issues around our very tight housing and the other shortages in the communities. For a solution to that, we've been trying to work with the Yukon Mining Advisory Committee and other groups to say that we need more training in the community, that we need to steer people into these professions. I think this work, with Yukon College, will be very helpful. That definitely is a solution: the training of people in these offices. We want community members assessing projects that mostly affect their communities.

Another issue that has come up is with respect to what we call decision bodies, or regulators. At this time, all governments are having some difficulty in including socio-economic conditions in any of their licences. For example, DFO has a great difficulty in putting socio-economic mitigations into a licence. So does the Yukon government, and so do the first nations. The solution to this is regulatory change at that level—not necessarily to our act, but at the actual regulatory level.

The second side of this is a difficulty in coordinating federal regulators in our assessment process. Currently, Transport Canada does not participate in the front end of our assessments. It only takes part towards the end, but by that time, we've already made it clear what information we need from proponents and have already assessed the project. Then Transport Canada enters as a regulator and we run a real risk of uncertainty in the process if we have not assessed all issues that Transport Canada requires.

One solution I'm starting to see come forward is through CanNor and the Northern Project Management Office. We have met with them over the last couple of weeks. We see a real role for that major projects office in trying to coordinate some of the various federal regulators, whether that's Transport Canada, DFO, or some other federal department. If this continues, I think it's a good, positive sign with regard to that particular office.

I will identify one other issue. It will feed in nicely to Mr. Robertson's presentation. It is that when the Umbrella Final Agreement and the first nation agreements came into force, we envisaged chapter 12, which was the development assessment process or YESAA, and there was also chapter 11, which dealt with land use planning.

It was always thought that land use planning would feed into our assessments. To date, only one land use plan has been enacted in the Yukon. Not having land use plans does sort of force us to assess in a bit of a vacuum. We think these plans are key tools as part of any assessment. Adding completed plans, along with additional completed resource management plans, whether for renewable or non-renewable resources, will greatly help us in completing our assessments and probably will shorten timelines for assessments as well.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you, Mr. Mills.

Mr. McKinnon, and Mr. Mills as well, I think, committee members remember your kindness in giving us all a great Air North cap to take home. We appreciate that, too, and members were wearing them proudly on the trip over to Yellowknife the next day.

Now, with that great segue, we'll go to Mr. Robertson, who joins us from the Yukon Land Use Planning Council.

Go ahead, Mr. Robertson. You have 10 minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Ian D. Robertson Council Member, Yukon Land Use Planning Council

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to represent the Council. If there are no objections, I would prefer to make my presentation in English.

Regional planning assists northern development by being holistic: providing a clear vision of the appropriate balance between conservation and development interests applicable to the circumstances of a given region. It does help to ensure orderly and efficient provision of infrastructure and an appropriate land management regulatory and policy framework.

Providing present and future potential land users with greater certainty and access to valued resources is also an important consideration, as well as the flexibility of creating plans that can adapt to new knowledge. Land use planning also helps to prevent and, hopefully, resolve conflicts. Also, an important thing from industry's point of view is that it helps to reduce risk.

One of the other advantages of regional planning is that it provides an upfront and overarching framework for individual projects as well as socio-economic and environmental assessments. It's interesting that the back end of the process presented to you first. We're the front end of the process.

If regional planning is done right, it can facilitate positive development. I'm going to give you a bit of history about land use planning in the north.

Really, the key sort of change situation was the 1977 Berger report dealing with the Mackenzie Valley pipeline. Berger recommended a 10-year moratorium on major development to allow time for the settlement of land claims and to build governance capacity. He also recommended that regional planning follow immediately after land claims settlement.

DIAND tried a top-down planning process in 1985 and it didn't work, mainly because first nations were more concentrated on resolving land claim negotiations. So only to the extent that planning contributed to resolving a claim or assisting a first nation to make its case for its land claim were they prepared to participate.

The program was cancelled in 1990 and later resurrected, and in the case of Yukon, specifically because it was included in the 1993 Umbrella Final Agreement and tied to the first four land claim and self-government agreements, which involved the Teslin Tlingit Council, the Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation, of which Stephen is a member, the Champagne and Aishihik First Nations, and the Nacho Nyak Dun.

The key is chapter 11, but I'm not going to go into detail. What I want to tell you is that only one plan has been completed after all this time and that is the North Yukon Land Use Plan. But a second plan for the Peel region has reached the recommended plan stage. Unfortunately, these plans are taking too long to complete and they're costing too much. Why?

In the first place, there is the amount of time required for preplanning, setting up commissions, and collecting basic resource information. Much of the resource information is sketchy, incomplete, of questionable accuracy, and out of date. This is primarily because of the lack of government attention to science. Science is not seen as an investment but as a cost, so governments at both the federal and territorial levels have consistently been cutting back and looking to development proponents to do their work for them.

Regional planning is funded through the land claim implementation process. Here's one place you can help us. There's a 10-year implementation review that is now in year 14, and we don't believe Canada is taking the completion of this review seriously enough. We also note that the Auditor General has already rapped DIAND's efforts north of 60, calling for more accountability and consequences for non-performance. We agree, but this must apply to all involved.

First nations have not received adequate funding to build their own capacity to participate in land use planning or development assessment. High staff turnover, inadequate funding, and lack of qualified first nations people are part of the problem.

It's interesting that in the committee's discussion we talk about the definition of the north as being the three territories. As a planner, I don't think that way. I see two norths.

There's one that incorporates the boreal forest, which is the southern band of the territories in the northern parts of the provinces and stretches from coast to coast. The 60th parallel is really an artificial boundary.

The north is also not an unoccupied frontier. The development game has changed, particularly with the emergence of the territorial governments. But I can assure you that it's taken well over 35 years for people to get the message that the old ways of doing business are no longer appropriate.

This planning takes a more holistic approach. We're really dealing with the front end versus the back end. Planning adds value and context for development assessment. One of the weaknesses in the YESAA legislation, from our point of view, is in the implementation. That is, if there is no land use plan existing and it is in the process of being developed, say, remembering that this can be a three-year or four-year process, it's business as usual.

What business as usual means is that the commissions must focus on getting their plan done, and as council we have told them this. We tell them, “Don't get involved in the YESAA process”. That's government's responsibility at this stage.

But then we have the scenario where a plan is completed and the issue becomes, “What do you do when a proponent brings forward a proposal that is inconsistent with the plan?” This is an area that requires greater clarity. At the present time under YESAA, the assessor is to assist the proponent in trying to facilitate as much compliance as possible, but effectively he recommends to the parties if it's not compliant. That's really up to the governments, then, which are the parties, to make a decision. But there's a question we have here. At that point, really, shouldn't the proponent have to stop, go back, and seek a planned amendment?

There are some implications of the business-as-usual approach to doing plan preparation. For example, you have the whole issue of claim staking and the free entry rights. In the case of the Peel plan, which is in a very environmentally sensitive area, there was a concern of the conservation side of the equation. Wait a minute, they said, there's all this staking going on at the same time, but in effect we can't go in and stake our interest; only the mining people get to stake their interest. I think it's a fair point that's worth consideration.

It's somewhat ironic that industry considers best practices as being an adequate standard whereas we tend to think of them as the minimum standard.

If we're going to make plans more successful, we need more strategic thinking and we need to be thinking about how strategic investment has paid off. A good example is the extension of the Internet to the north, the telehealth concept, and things like RADARSAT, that technology. Ironically, conservation organizations sometimes seem to have a better appreciation of the needs for strategic thinking than the development industry or the respective governments.

We believe that development planning and conservation planning can and should proceed in hand in the north. The Yukon is too polarized, but the NWT has been a bit more successful in that regard.

So how can we improve planning quickly?

Our 10-year review is going on year 14, and it sure would help if we could get that solved. Also, I believe that first nations have to spend more time resolving overlap issues with respect to their boundaries, because it makes it very difficult to plan when there are areas that are in conflict. The council's position has been that the planning boundaries must be seamless and there should be no doughnuts.

As well, Canada and Yukon both have to insist on greater accountability for plan production.

We need to get the outstanding land claim negotiations going again, particularly with respect to White River and the Kaska.

We have some suggestions in terms of how things can be improved. One of the interesting things—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

We're a little over time right now, so if you can give a brief statement just to summarize, Mr. Robertson, then we'll go to questions.

11:25 a.m.

Council Member, Yukon Land Use Planning Council

Ian D. Robertson

Okay. There are two things I'd like to add here.

One is that we believe that the Yukon atlas is a good model for putting information together. It's interesting that for northern Canada there is no national atlas; most of us are familiar with atlases.

We believe that we have to spend more money on science. Science is a key to us being able to do our work successfully. That also includes recognizing the importance of traditional knowledge.

Finally, I think Canada needs to demonstrate it both in how it funds the process and in how it participates if we want land use planning to be successful.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you very much, Mr. Robertson.

Now we'll go to the first round of questions.

We'll begin with Mr. Bagnell, for seven minutes.

Go ahead.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you.

Thank you all for coming today. It's great to see you again.

Just to put it on the record, Stephen, I think you've now probably set a record in the history of the Parliament of Canada by being a witness on the same project three times. In my nine years, I've never seen someone be a witness twice, and now you've had three different hats, so I think you've set a great record there.

Ian, on the 10-year review, you can rest assured that the committee had that point from a number of witnesses. I've brought it up in Parliament numerous times. We really agree with you and we want to get moving on that.

Stephen and Ken, as you said, it takes 34 days. We heard from a witness in the Northwest Territories, I think, that what took you 34 days takes months or years in their processes. This is the only process in Canada, actually, where you go through one process for all the crown land. In those jurisdictions that have self-governments, and actually three orders of government, you could go through three assessment processes.

This is a great model for the rest of the country. Could you suggest why it might take only 34 days? What are the clues to this success, against the barriers we're having in the other two territories, where they say it takes months or years?

11:25 a.m.

Chair of the Board, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board

Ken McKinnon

It's obvious: because of Stephen's great negotiating skills in creating the act.

11:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:25 a.m.

Chair of the Board, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board

Ken McKinnon

I'll defer to him on this one.

11:25 a.m.

Executive Committe Member, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board

Stephen Mills

Thanks for the question, Mr. Bagnell.

On the offices that do these assessments, we were talking about the designated offices. At the executive committee level, we're dealing with the more major projects. They take a longer period of time--anywhere from six months up to two years--but we're talking about very major hardrock mines. We've completed two of those and have two more being assessed now.

But at the designated office level, we're talking anywhere from very small projects up to fairly large exploration and small-level mines. There is a spectrum on the time it takes. We have fairly tight timelines, so our assessors have to work to those timelines.

We also have worked very hard at trying to make sure that the information request, or what is needed for a proponent to file in our assessments, is clear and comprehensive so that proponents are coming in with complete proposals. That is different from other jurisdictions.

That is actually different from how CEAA did assessments in the Yukon. Proponents would come in with partial applications and then would work through a long process of more information requests, back and forth.

We've been trying to front-end load this process, as we call it, so that the proponents are really clear. What that does is weed out a lot of bad proposals that will never get through. It also makes sure that it's kind of a level playing field that allows proponents to gear up. If you're looking at an exploration project, you know what kind of research and information you need to collect as you start to work on the ground, before you ever come in our door. We think that's probably one of the keys to proper assessment.

I'm sorry that is a bit of a long answer, but on some of the issues that came up in the five-year review, we're addressing them. I'm going to be working with the DO. We're going to be working with conservation groups, first nations, proponents, and the regulators to come up with sector-specific application forms and information requirements. We tried a generic one that wasn't working as well,so we think this will add even more clarity.

Depending on what sector you're in, the information that you need to bring in and be assessed on will be much clearer. We think that's going to actually result in a more efficient process as well.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you.

As you both said, as I've been saying for years, and as we heard from other witnesses, land use planning is the key. Once that's in place, it's easy. It's like zoning a city. You know what you can do where and developers can get on with it more quickly.

I have a question for all the witnesses. As you said, only one has been done so far in the whole Yukon. What do we have to do to get the rest of the Yukon done as quickly as possible? What would we have to invest? What has to occur so we can speed that up? It's obviously going too slowly.

11:30 a.m.

Council Member, Yukon Land Use Planning Council

Ian D. Robertson

I think there are several things. One of the big issues has been the issue of overlaps between first nations, because until they can resolve some of those boundary issues, we've basically said we're not going there. The other thing is that we still have outstanding land claims for the Kaska, which includes the Ross River and Watson Lake areas, which are both very resource rich, and also the White River area, which is near Beaver Creek, on the boundary with Alaska. Those are two specifics.

The other thing I tried to bring out in the presentation was the importance of the available science. Stephen talked a little bit about the coordination of the federal government in the regulatory review process, but we also have the same sort of problem.

The other thing he talked about, on which we have the same issue, is capacity. Very few first nations people are really participating at the level they could be in the land use planning process. It's the same people juggling four or five different responsibilities, and we're not really breaking through some of those barriers to strengthen their capacity.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

You have 40 seconds left.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Stephen, did you want to comment on what we need to do to get more land use planning completed in the Yukon more quickly?

11:30 a.m.

Executive Committe Member, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board

Stephen Mills

In any case, because this is a situation where recommendations are made to the various governments to approve the plan, I think there should be better cooperation between the governments that approve them, those being the Yukon--with federal input as well--and the first nation governments. If they have a more common vision, I think that would expedite the development of the initial guidelines as well as the final approval of these plans.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you.

The next member to speak will be Mr. Lemay.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to apologize because I was unable to travel with the committee to the Yukon. Since I'm also a member of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, I had to remain in Ottawa.

I listened very closely to your comments which I found most interesting. I also read the submission of the Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board. The six-stage process outlined is very interesting and could, in my opinion, be applied to other locations in Canada.

Since I'm from Quebec, I will take note of the details of this process. It could probably be applied to many claim cases and project assessments.

I'm not sure which of the three witnesses will be able to answer my first question. The White River First Nation, the Ross River Dene Council and the Liard First Nation are still without any land agreements. GIven that your organization is important to Yukon's development, is it involved in some way in land claim negotiations? If it is not, would you like to take part in these negotiations? Or are you following these land claim negotiations closely?

11:35 a.m.

Chair of the Board, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board

Ken McKinnon

No, we're not involved in the negotiations, and we won't be, because they're between governments. As an assessment body, we just aren't in that category. Both Stephen and I have had a long history in the settlement of the first nations that have settled in the Yukon, so naturally we follow all the negotiations very closely. Hopefully, the negotiations will start again for the three first nations that have not settled to this time in the Yukon.

Having said that, we have been assessing projects in the territorial interest of the first nations that haven't settled to this time. Those assessments we have done in those traditional territories have been accepted to this time. The question is, if they disagree with an assessment that we do in their territory and they have not settled, what will the result be? We don't know, because we haven't come to that point at this time.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

You understood quite well what I was getting at with this. I'm just trying to understand. I'm from Quebec and Quebec Aboriginal communities— whether it be the Innu on the North Shore or the Algonquin close by, since we are on Algonquin land— are involved in numerous land claims.

Let's take one example. Suppose I discover a mine in Old Crow and I'm an entrepreneur. My company is called Mines Agnico-Eagle Limitée and I'm interested in developing this mine. Since the land is already home to some aboriginal communities, how would I go about things, practically speaking? I understand that the process involves six stages. You have the project promoter and the regulatory body. You are the regulatory body. How do you work with the aboriginal communities that occupy the land on which the mining operations would be carried out?

11:35 a.m.

Chair of the Board, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board

Ken McKinnon

We're really lucky, because we have a Vuntut Gwitchin member from Old Crow to answer your question.

11:35 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

It wasn't planned. I will listen to the answer, because the subject interests me a great deal.