Evidence of meeting #43 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Is that the same thing as Stephen was talking about, for example, in the case of the land for which claims have already been negotiated, that is land rights and subsurface rights? Were these rights taken into consideration during the process?
Council Member, Yukon Land Use Planning Council
Yes, it is. The key part of it is the mandate that the commission is given, and that's the opportunity, when the parties say up front, “Look, these are the main issues that we want to see addressed in the plan”. That usually includes all sectors.
The question that has come up in the planning process itself is whether it is balanced enough so that you're giving fair hearing to all the different interests. There has been a suggestion that in the case of the appeal there was too much focus on the conservation side of the equation. In fact, the council had to step in a number of times and remind them that we recognize that there are conservation values here as well, but there are other values. But it's up to the commission to produce the plan and make the recommendations.
Bloc
Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
In view of the problems encountered in connection with this project, what recommendations would you make to interested parties like First Nations and industry? In your opinion, what are the main issues in dispute and how likely is it that they will be resolved?
Council Member, Yukon Land Use Planning Council
The biggest problems are generally ones of trust: willingness to come to the table, give full and transparent disclosure of information and interests, and work towards building a consensus.
Personally, because I'm trained as a planner, I would add more discipline to the process. I believe that if you can build consensus at the options stage for the criteria you're going to use to assess the options, it doesn't matter how varied they are. Once they're pushed through the hopper, the best solutions will come out at the bottom by using the sieve process.
Bloc
Chair of the Board, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board
There have been several questions on what should come first: the land use planning or YESAB. Just to put this in a historical context, which is a really important context, it would be great if all of the land use plans in the Yukon had been in effect before YESAB came into effect. It would have made our jobs much easier.
You have to remember that YESAB was critical at the time, because as far as the first nations people of the Yukon were concerned, it was an absolute deal-breaker in the process. If YESAB did not come into effect and there were more atrocities committed on Yukon first nations land, which first nations were protesting against, they said that as far as they were concerned the land deal in the Yukon was a total deal-breaker. So it was absolutely essential that YESAB came in at the time it did, which was before this land process.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Thank you, Mr. Lévesque.
Now we'll go to Mr. Payne for five minutes, who will be followed by Madam Crowder.
Go ahead, please.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It's nice to see you again, Stephen. I have your hat sitting on my desk at home and I wear it proudly.
I also welcome our other guests.
My trip to the Yukon was very interesting. It was my first time there. I certainly appreciate the beauty and some of the issues surrounding the territory.
One of the things that I'd like to understand a little more fully as part of this committee is how the environmental assessments impact economic development. As you know, of course, we're doing this study of economic development. How does that impact the relation to the federal program initiatives and, certainly, the northern territory communities? I'm not sure who wants to jump in on that one.
Executive Committe Member, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board
Thank you for the question.
It's a big question. First of all, federal funding normally triggers a CEAA assessment. In the Yukon, it triggers a YESAA assessment. So certain projects are going to go through an assessment even with federal funding, let's say, and even with some of the new initiatives that are out there.
One of the projects that we're assessing at a more advanced level, a bigger project, is a fairly large hydro project. A very large amount of federal funding flowed into that project.
We recognize that there are time limits on funding. We work with the proponents closely, as well as with the other parties that are going to participate, as early as possible before they submit their proposal, to make sure that the proposals are complete and are viable projects. In that case, we think that so long as proponents do their job, we can provide fairly good timelines to projects.
On the economic development side, I think that provides some certainty in the Yukon. We've heard what it takes to raise funding for major mining projects and others, so our timelines are an integral part of that. We think a good assessment can provide for good projects in a timely manner.
Chair of the Board, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board
The argument in the Yukon towards this is, what should the timelines be? But the certainty of timelines is what everybody appreciates under our process, particularly industry.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
I have a couple of other questions. I'm not sure how much time I have left.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
First off, certainly I am sensitive to the fact, as is the rest of the committee, that the object of the environmental and/or socio-economic assessments in the north often involve competing interests related to economic development, community objectives, environmental protection, private interests, and territorial interests. I'm wondering if you could help us out with your thoughts around that.
Chair of the Board, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board
They're totally competing interests, and I am amazed, going on a thousand assessments, at the real lack of controversy there has been. Having come from an entrepreneurial and political background, when I saw YESAA being created, I said, “My goodness, this is incredibly complex, both the act and the regulations, and I'm not sure whether it can work in the Yukon”. When I was asked to take over as chair of YESAB, I did it rather reluctantly, not knowing whether it really could work. I'm surprised at how well it has really worked, what with all of the competing interests.
I tell our assessors constantly that if they don't want to be in the business of controversy--it's almost like your jobs--they ought to find another occupation, because you always have a winner and loser in assessment. It is always a controversial process. I am amazed at how well we have accomplished it in the north, where, as you know, everybody has a really strong opinion. I am amazed that we've done as well as we've been able to.
Executive Committe Member, Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board
If it's okay, I have just a quick response to add to that.
Although we haven't had a lot of controversy, when it comes up it's big. The thing is that when we do assessments, we have to assess those particular concerns that are coming forward and determine if they're valid or not, and if they can be mitigated or if they're significant. So yes, in some cases, our recommendations may not be liked by a particular community, but we have had to make the decisions and weigh that.
What's good for some of the governments is that it now sits with us. We wear that controversy and then we issue recommendations, which sometimes has moved it away from the governments that issue the final regulatory approvals.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Todd Russell
You're right spot on, sir.
We'll move now to Ms. Crowder for five minutes
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to come back to Mr. Robertson.
You mentioned the importance of science a couple of times. I wonder if you could say more about that. You quickly talked about climate change. I'm not sure what kind of science you're talking about. What are you looking for specifically around climate change?
Council Member, Yukon Land Use Planning Council
We know that the north is experiencing climate faster and to a larger degree. The impacts of this on land use planning are significant, partly because land use planning focuses on a timeframe of 20-plus years. So if it's happening at the rates that it has been and that we see on the ground, we're going to have tremendous changes occurring, which means that we end up dealing with a whole new batch of issues that were unanticipated when the process started, or when it's time for the first set of reviews.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
So what sort of science are you looking for? You've mentioned that a couple of times.
Council Member, Yukon Land Use Planning Council
The basic science goes right back to everything from fisheries, water.... You know, we used to have water stations on all sorts of remote rivers. They're gone, so you're missing the continuity of the information. There's climatic data, some of the most fundamental basic stuff. There's the vegetation and the vegetation changes.
I can tell you, for example, that in my time in the Yukon, we've seen ranges of species of vegetation and wildlife change by 1,000 kilometres. We've seen the tree line move further north.
All of these things that are fundamental are really.... You know, we talk a good story, but one of the biggest issues for Canada as a whole is that we don't treat it as an investment and recognize the importance of continuity of information over time. We're picking and choosing what's the popular issue of the day. Yet if you went back historically, you would see that we spend a lot of time building up basic geology, surficial geology, and our mapping technology. We don't have adequate mapping of the north as a whole. The mapping of waters is a classic example. It is totally incomplete.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
You're saying this information is scattered and there's not a coherent, cohesive picture. In the context of a 20-year land use plan, without this kind of information you're going to be making decisions 20 years out that actually may not have any relevance 20 years down the road.
Council Member, Yukon Land Use Planning Council
Exactly. You're using imperfect information to make a best call at this point in time.
One of the issues that comes forward all the time, particularly for industry, is that very large areas just haven't been explored yet. If you identify an area for other values and there isn't an equal level of research and information, then you may decide to protect an area for its other values when it's sitting on a giant mineral deposit, which we might find we really need. That's just one example.