Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 26th, 2009

[Christine Cram, Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you.

Thank you very much. The $22 million is there for a number of institutions, both aboriginal institutions and post-secondary institutions that are accredited by the provinces, with a view to ensuring that programs aimed at aboriginal students are developed and that they receive help to continue their studies.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Fine, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

Ms Crowder, you have seven minutes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you.

Thanks again for coming here today.

I want to start off with a comment about the decreasing number of students. The millennium scholarship funding study that was done in 2004 says that one possible reason for the decline in the number of students is that funding levels have remained unchanged and costs have risen. I don't think it's any surprise to any of us that one of the reasons the bands are struggling with many more students is simply that it used to cost x number of dollars and now it costs x plus, so that's one good reason for a decline.

I want to come back to the fact that the committee did some very good work on a report in 2006. Back in 2000, the Auditor General indicated that at least 22 studies between 1991 and 1999 had been conducted on education, K to 12 and post-secondary, and then went on to say that the total cost of the studies “is unknown”, adding that “None of the study reports that came to our attention was accompanied by a departmental implementation plan that identified how and by whom the necessary remedial action would be taken....” That was in 2000.

In 2004, the Auditor General went on to again highlight the fact that the department had again had any number of studies and there really wasn't a lot of action as a result. She commented in chapter 5.61 that “the Department informed the government that a comprehensive review of the policy was ongoing” and that it was “committed to developing recommendations, in consultation with First Nations, to update the policy framework and program delivery...by 2003.”

When the committee went on to do its study in 2006, one of the reasons we looked at post-secondary, even though we recognize that K to 12 is a very important building block for post-secondary, was that the department was in the midst of conducting a review of primary and secondary education programs, with new policy and management frameworks due for completion by early 2007. We haven't seen that either.

So when I hear there's another review going on.... I was on the committee on Status of Women when the women's organizations talked about the fact that in one of their broken-down offices they could hold up the corner of their table by the stack of reports that had not been acted on. It appears to be the same when we're talking about education, both elementary and post-secondary.

I'm going to raise another point. From 2004 to 2006, INAC worked with the Assembly of First Nations to renew the authorities for the post-secondary education program. What's happened with that review on the authorities? Has there been any reporting out on it?

[Christine Cram]

Thank you for the questions.

As you're probably aware, about every five years authorities need to be renewed, and the education authorities, including post-secondary, were up for renewal at the end of 2007. I could be wrong, but I think it was March 31, 2007. We have renewal for another five years for those programs.

The new initiatives, which Mr. Yeates spoke to in his opening remarks, the two new programs that the federal government launched in December, relate to that program renewal. What came out of the renewal were two initiatives related to K to 12.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Excuse me. So out of that renewal, though, is there a report? Is there an action plan? Are there details that the committee could access? That's what I'm interested in.

[Christine Cram]

To my knowledge, no. There's information on the two new initiatives.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Just on those two new ones. But we can't go in and say that this is what this renewal initiative looked like and these are the two things that came out.

I want to know how that decision was made. What process was used? What was the involvement from first nations? How many other recommendations were there that aren't being acted on? What's the cost of implementing that action plan? What's the timeframe? We can't find that information.

[Christine Cram]

There was a long process, I will say, with the Assembly of First Nations. Jointly, we agreed on a series of priorities. I will say that this isn't the end of renewal for education. We launched a series of phases. The first phase was the two initiatives that did get launched in December and were focused on K to 12. More work is needed in terms of post-secondary.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

The frustration is that we continue to get report after report, but we don't see the action plans and we don't see where the accountability is for all of the thousands of dollars that have been invested in these reports. Where's the accountability for action being taken on it? I'm glad Monsieur Lemay went through this report, because we spent hours of taxpayers' dollars hearing from witnesses across the country who highlighted some serious concerns with post-secondary education. We prepared this report, and outside of a website and a funding proposal on data systems, virtually nothing has been acted on.

I know part of this is outside of the department. Committing to making the funding available to post-secondary is a political issue; I recognize that. In 2004, the Auditor General talked about the increase in the number of young people under the age of 25. We have an urgent situation wherein we have to address post-secondary.

Are there any terms of reference for the PSEP review? If there are, can the committee have access to them? What does the consultation process look like? What's the timeline?

[Neil Yeates]

I can start off, Chair.

Minister Strahl has recently written to all first nations, because there has been a fair amount of public interest in the review of post-secondary education. The minister recently wrote all of the first nation chiefs and Inuit leaders to invite their input and feedback. We are determining with the minister an appropriate, more formal, and fulsome engagement and consultation process. We expect that will roll out in the late spring and over the summer, leading to some proposals in the fall.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Madam Crowder, unfortunately your time is finished. You'll get some time on the second round.

Now we'll go to Mr. Duncan, for seven minutes.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you very much.

Just to follow up on where this conversation has been going, the review was launched partially on the basis that we have declining take-up, and there were concerns identified, I understand, from first nations and Inuit about the post-secondary education envelope. Could you describe what some of those concerns were and why the review was launched the way it was?

[Neil Yeates]

Certainly. Chair, some of the issues that have been identified include the following.

I think we're all aware that the number of students involved in the program has declined in the past 10 years. We're quite concerned about that.

Other studies have shown that the awareness of the full array of student support programs amongst first nation and Inuit youth is very low. That concerns us, because there are many options available; it's not just the INAC post-secondary support program.

We also know that there are many barriers to success, and a straight student financial assistance program doesn't necessarily get at any of those barriers. We need to think about more holistic and integrated approaches to our support for post-secondary.

There's been an issue raised about the equity of access to funding for the program. It is allocated at a community level, which largely presumes that the need for post-secondary is the same across all communities in the country. I think we know that's not the case.

Also, issues have been raised about how we ensure that the students with the highest needs get the most support. Again, with the type of program we have, we really can't be assured of that.

Finally, how do we report better, as I think this committee is asking—and for Canadians in general, how do we report better—on the results and the outcomes being achieved through this program? Again, there are challenges to that, given the existing structure of the program that we have.

So we have a set of fairly wide-spread issues.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

When we talk about post-secondary education for aboriginals, we're having an incomplete conversation, in a sense, when we only talk to INAC. I know you mentioned HRSDC in your opening comments, and you may have talked about a dollar figure, but I missed it. I think it was at the moment of a little slowdown in the conversation initiated from the other side. But I know that's a very significant spending. I know the numbers you gave on the dramatic increase in college graduates from first nations and Inuit were encouraging, and I know a lot of that HRSDC money is tilted towards college.

So could you enlighten us a little bit on what those numbers are and whether that represents something that has been on an increasing trend or not? If you happen to know the answer to that, that would be most useful.

[Neil Yeates]

Certainly. The Government of Canada, as I said in my introductory remarks, invests about $9.8 billion in post-secondary education. That has increased very dramatically over the past number of years. Now, that's funding that has gone into university research, financial assistance, and a whole array of areas.

In budget 2008, an additional $123 million over the next four years has been put into the Canada student loans program. A further $350 million is being invested in a new Canada study grant program, again, for which aboriginal and Inuit students are fully eligible. There's also $25 million for a new Canada graduate scholarship award and a further $3 million stipend. As well, there are the registered education savings plans that have been implemented on the tax side, which again are worth, I think, in the neighbourhood of $1.8 billion.

So there's a whole array of different interventions that have been made. In budget 2009, there's a further $100 million available over the next three years for the aboriginal skills and employment partnerships, as well as a new investment fund of $75 million and an aboriginal human resources development strategy of $25 million, all of those things through HRSDC.

So there's a lot happening on the skills development side as well, which is an important counterpart to the work being done in post-secondary education itself.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Those directed moneys from HRSDC to aboriginal programming—I know you mentioned several numbers there, and they're quite significant—do you know if those are major expansions from previously?

[Neil Yeates]

Yes, Chair, they are fairly significant. The strategic investment fund I mentioned is new. The aboriginal skills and employment partnership is an additional investment in an existing program, as is the human resources development strategy. But yes, they are significant both new and incremental investments in existing programming.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Just a very brief question.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

My final question is this. I know that, for example, at the college level, there are many aboriginal students who are taking programs. But when I talk to the administration, I find that many of those people are considered aboriginal based on self-identification, and we all know self-identification doesn't produce a perfect number. Is there some recognition of that in this whole equation as well?

[Neil Yeates]

Well, the broad information we gave you on educational attainment, in terms of university graduation and college graduation, is from the census data. So that is self-identification, but I think the view is that those numbers are reasonably accurate over time and they do show you changes over time. But yes, that probably is a factor in terms of perhaps some level of under-reporting. I think, regardless, we still know we have a challenge in terms of a gap.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, we're really over time there. Thank you, Mr. Yeates.

We will now begin the second round. Mr. Bélanger will lead off.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Let's get right into it, Mr. Yeates.

I want to be clear on this matter of new schools, because there is some uncertainty. Will the investment be to replace existing schools only?

[Neil Yeates]

Yes. Until we actually have the final list announced to confirm that for you, that is the thrust. Where we are building a new school, typically it's replacing a school that is viewed as needing to be replaced.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Not typically; I want to know. It is $200 million, is that correct?