Evidence of meeting #14 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Do they come from all over Quebec or just the Montreal area?
Executive Director, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal
They come from all over. As I said earlier, people are referred to us from communities such as Povungnituk. We offer many programs that are not available in their community. When we received funds from the Aboriginal Healing Foundation—
I'm going to have to hold the baby.
Board Member, Mental Health Commission of Canada
I knew, as a member of the aboriginal member of the community, but a formal presentation to the Mental Health Commission was not made.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Ms. Martin, are you able to finish the statement that Nakuset unfortunately could not? Do you know whether it is possible to provide services other than through this program?
Carrie Martin Evaluation Coordinator, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal
You are asking whether it's possible to provide the services without the funding. Right now we're trying to continue the services. We're relying on a lot of the traditional healers and elders to come in on a volunteer basis. But accessing funding that is equivalent to the AHF is nearly impossible. When we try to access funds, they all require that the mandate of the shelter be specifically for what we're applying for. We can't change our mandate, so we're having difficulty accessing funds to pick up where the Aboriginal Healing Foundation cuts were.
Bloc
Executive Director, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal
We've had funding since 1999, so there was always an expiry date. But the expiry dates were maybe every two or three years and we always got renewed. I'm on maternity leave, but I spoke to someone at AHF and asked how it looked for future funding. He gave me the impression that once the government came back after being prorogued it would be decided--there was the possibility that we would be renewed, or AHF would be renewed. He also said he was so impressed with our programming that he was going to use our shelter as a template for all the other programs.
That's all I want to say about that.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
If I understand correctly, your shelter in Montreal was set up, in large part, to deliver the services of the Aboriginal Healing Foundation.
Executive Director, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal
How did he say that? Were you listening?
Could you repeat the question?
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Very well.
The Native Women's Shelter of Montreal was in large part set up to deliver the services of the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, if I understand correctly. Was it indeed to help women in this situation or for something else?
Executive Director, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal
It was set up for other things. We opened our doors in 1987, but when we knew of the funding it completely changed the programming of the shelter. We're very well known because of our programming, and that's why we have so many people referred to us. Now it's sort of a shock, because we have to tell clients they can't come down to see our psychotherapist and our art therapist, because these are the people we are able to hire through the Aboriginal Healing Foundation. And we no longer have a sexual assault worker. We have the bare minimums.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Thank you, Mr. Lemay.
Now we'll go to Ms. Crowder for seven minutes. Go ahead, Ms. Crowder.
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank the witnesses for coming today.
There are a couple of points I wanted to touch on.
First of all, I want to acknowledge that I think most of you, in one way or another, have talked about the success of your programs. In fact, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada had an evaluation done that talked about the success of your programs. I just wanted to put that on the record.
The second piece of it is, and referring to Ms. Dion Stout... “Out of the Shadows At Last” actually had a couple of very good sections on access to programming. It was identified that there were problems with equity of access to federal government programming, yet what had been proposed is that the Aboriginal Healing Foundation programming will be replaced by something from Health Canada, which we already know is patchwork and often inaccessible.
The second piece from the “Out of the Shadows at Last” report that I wanted to touch on was that they strongly talked about the renewal of the Aboriginal Healing Foundation. Ms. Rigsby-Jones touched on the economics of what we measure. In this report--now this is 2004--they specifically said that for every $2 spent on the community holistic healing circle program at Hollow Water--one place they were citing--the federal and provincial governments save $6 to $16 on incarceration fees. So every $2 of investments they have on community healing, they save $6 to $16 in 2004 dollars.
I'll start with Ms. Rigsby-Jones, and then the rest of you can jump in. You've clearly outlined the fact that the benefits of the Aboriginal Healing Foundation programs are about the fact that it's community-driven. Everything that we've looked at from Health Canada is individually driven. There are complicated processes. There are treatment plans. There are all these kinds of things that an individual may have to submit. So I wonder if you could comment on what you think will happen to individuals who are currently accessing community-driven programs when they can only deal with Health Canada programs.
Executive Director, Tsow-Tun Le Lum Society
I believe that some of the people I've worked with in the past won't be able to bring themselves to access psychological services by non-aboriginal providers. I base that on the historical trauma of how still triggered and afraid many people are to walk into offices.
Before I came yesterday morning from my office, I phoned the 1-877 number for Health Canada, and it was much improved from the last time I phoned before Christmas. I was on hold for 20 minutes, and I got a person this time. When I phoned before Christmas, I didn't; I just kept getting looped around and around. So that's been an improvement.
Following what Elizabeth was saying earlier, to make that kind of phone call and then just be put on hold and sit there waiting, not even always knowing what it is you need to ask for... When I spoke earlier in my presentation about the Aboriginal Healing Foundation providing a bridge, what I witnessed happening over the years is that people will come to us and feel comfortable, then they'll start doing some of their therapy work, because it's long-term healing. They come to us for five weeks and they make significant changes. We have a lot of testimonials to address that. But what they also realize, and you often identify, is the further work that they have to do to be able to help them bridge that and find a place to go, and the same with the resolution health support workers...to provide that bridge. With the lack of the community-driven programs, that's disappearing.
As Elizabeth also acknowledged, it's not just in her area, but on Vancouver Island we have many remote reserves that are available only by float plane or water taxi. Both of those are very expensive for coming in and out, so there are many barriers in that respect to coming to a western therapist.
Director, Department of Health and Environment, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami
I was going to say, first of all, that we actually don't deliver the programming. We're a national organization, but we've had lots of concerns raised and lots of telephone calls from our communities and regions about the loss of the Aboriginal Healing Foundation program. I think one of the things is that, as we had said earlier in the presentation, the two can complement one another.
I think the benefit of the Aboriginal Healing Foundation is, as we said, that communities are at different places and people are at different places. I think the fact that they have community programs and people they can go to and talk to in their language... They may not go thinking they need counselling. They may go for something else.
As the example that we mentioned, when elders just happen to go in and talk to the youth and maybe talk about their experiences for the first time, they probably would never think to pick up a phone and call a 1-800 number or to call even a counselor, or a psychologist, or whoever in a community. But if they're going to go in and talk in a community centre, talk to youth, and then start talking about the issues, then that's another benefit to them coming to the realization that there are issues.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
I think that's a really good point. I think everybody has been fairly clear, the witnesses that we've heard from, that it's not that the programs can't be complementary, but what people are being forced into is just the Health Canada, and the removal of the other programs.
Nakuset.
Executive Director, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal
The kind of programming that we have is really traditional holistic as well as western, but I don't think we can get that through Health Canada. I don't think you can ask them for a prescription for a sweat lodge. These are the kinds of things that we lost through the residential schools, and we're trying to show them that these kinds of healing work for grief or for whatever it is.
It's the same thing with our traditional healers. You know it's very nice that Mike Standup still comes, but he doesn't get a paycheque and eventually he won't be able to come to us any more.
The other day I called Health Canada because I needed a new pair of contact lenses. I had to call them, then call the optometrist, then call them back, and nobody wanted to speak to each other. I'm an executive director and I was able to do it. However, someone who doesn't have the self-esteem would hang up the phone and not bother, and there's a language barrier as well.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Okay. Thank you, Ms. Crowder.
Now we'll go to Mr. Duncan. This will be the final question on the first round, and then it looks like we'll get through almost a full round on the next five-minute round as well.
Go ahead, Mr. Duncan.
Conservative
John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC
Thank you very much, everyone, for coming.
I just want to say that I know you all have difficult jobs to do and terms of reference that you probably would like to change from time to time, and it would be nice to be well funded in every way.
I am aware of an article from very recently, April 26, on Charlottetown's Aboriginal Survivors for Healing group. They had lost their AHF funding, and they've applied through Health Canada and have been approved. From what I can read, they're basically continuing with healing circles and the other historical ways they were operating under the aboriginal healing strategy.
So when I read the sort of context of the resolution health support program, I don't read the same things that I was hearing from you, in that much of it appears to be community-based. It's to provide cultural and emotional support as well as professional counselling by local aboriginal organizations, elders, and traditional healers are available. Specific services are determined by the needs of the individual, including dialogue ceremonies, prayers, or traditional healing. Emotional support services are also provided by local aboriginal organizations.
So I'm a little bit confused. For example, Ms. Rigsby-Jones, you're talking about providing treatments for people from all over--basically from Vancouver Island--which is where I'm from as well. Does that not indicate that they're individually based? I mean, you're dealing with individuals, not with communities, in the sense of that's who is arriving at your doorstep for treatment. Is that not correct?
Executive Director, Tsow-Tun Le Lum Society
In a broad sense, yes. We at Tsow-Tun Le Lum are an aboriginal community, so that's where the community-driven piece comes from.
Where I work we have multi-funding contracts, including a resolution health support contract as well. We have a cultural support team that does provide services. However, my understanding of our contract is that the services are provided for people while they're in the compensation process. Then once the truth and reconciliation process begins, which will be starting very shortly, we're there to provide services for that.
To date, we haven't had the budget to be able to offer ongoing therapeutic support, although the staff have the skills to do that. They most certainly work beyond what our parameters are, and assist with referral. Truthfully, we get creative about how we can connect people who need a ceremony to an elder, and we work with them. We've so far been able to meet most requests.
It's a challenge, because it eats into our travel budget really quickly when we're sending people on planes and water taxis. So we're needing to balance that.
Conservative
John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC
I'm going to ask you a question that is a little uncomfortable for me, from hearing you talk about breaking the cycle. I'm aware of an individual who received treatment. She was a victim of sexual abuse and the name of the perpetrator was very well known to the people at the facility. That person was an important person in the community. The professional or the aboriginal person responsible for the treatment centre was from the same community, and rather than breaking the cycle, that person protected the perpetrator.
I was very compromised at the time, and I'm just wondering what the rules are surrounding something like that, because I didn't know exactly what to do at the time.
Executive Director, Tsow-Tun Le Lum Society
Thank you. I appreciate your candour.
In my remarks I talked about the intergenerational effects, and in that regard I do know that projects are only as healthy as their staff are. Where I work there's an intensive screening process before people are hired, and if issues from people's past come up, they're encouraged strongly to get into therapy and deal with them, because they can be solid and grounded when they come and when they don't...
What you're just bringing forward is a really... I'm trying to be tactful here. I know that what you're describing happens, and one of the concerns and fears I have regarding the upcoming Truth and Reconciliation Commission is with the story-telling and the need for support in the communities and adequate therapy, assistance, and training. Otherwise what you just described can happen over again. It's really a sad statement.