Evidence of meeting #16 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was use.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Eggertson  Executive Director, Canadian Association for Renewable Energies

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

This is the 16th meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

On the agenda is our study, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), of northern territories economic development: barriers and solutions.

I want to welcome our witness this afternoon, Mr. Bill Eggertson.

Mr. Eggertson comes from the Canadian Association for Renewable Energies.

Members, we only have the one witness today. It was not through a lack of trying; you will know we usually try to have a full panel. This has been partly because our schedule has been somewhat irregular these last two weeks, with the completion of work on Bill C-3 and the study on the Aboriginal Healing Foundation.

We have our first hour today with Mr. Eggertson. At that point we'll go in camera for our second hour, when we'll be talking about the instructions for the report on AHF.

Mr. Bagnell, you have a point of order.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Chair, on a short point of order, I wonder if the chair could give a 30-second report of the Speaker's ruling for the record. For those people who are following the minutes, they might be happy to know early on.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

Members may know that this afternoon, after question period, the Speaker did rule on the point of order that was put forward by the parliamentary secretary to the House leader--I think I have that right--in respect to the admissibility of amendments to Bill C-3.

The Speaker upheld the original ruling from this committee and ruled that the first amendment, which was to paragraph 6(1)(a), is inadmissible.

The second amendment pertained to the amendment to the short title. You'll remember that a short title can only be changed if amendments made to the scope of the bill compel a change in the language. In that the first amendment was ruled by the Speaker to be inadmissible, similarly the amendment to the short title was also inadmissible.

Members, where that puts the bill is that the Speaker has sent the bill to be reprinted without the amendments.

As a footnote, the removal of clause 9, which was agreed to by this committee, remains. That was admissible. Committees have the power to not agree with certain clauses of the bill, so that stays.

The House will now consider Bill C-3 at report stage, and the parties have the opportunity to propose amendments at report stage. As to when those amendments will be heard, that will be a discussion of the House leaders, I'm sure.

Unless there are any questions, we'll leave it at that and proceed with our witness.

Welcome, Mr. Eggertson. As we discussed, you have approximately 10 minutes, and then we go to questions from members.

3:35 p.m.

Bill Eggertson Executive Director, Canadian Association for Renewable Energies

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Canadian Association for Renewable Energies, which we sometimes refer to as we c.a.r.e., was formed to promote feasible applications for renewables in three sectors: green power using wind turbines and solar PV electric panels; green fuels, which is the use of cellulosic ethanol or biodiesel to displace conventional gasoline; and green heat for space conditioning, which is using geothermal, solar thermal, or other areas that simply heat air or water.

I have been involved with renewables since 1985, when the NRC solar program was shut down and the Solar Energy Society of Canada scrambled to refute the false impression that since the OPEC--

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Mr. Eggertson, we're going to give you sufficient time. We have simultaneous interpretation, and one of the things that happens, particularly when you're reading from text, is that it's quite easy to read at a pace that makes it a little difficult for our interpreters. A conversational pace would be good, but by all means take your time. We'll give you an extra minute or two if you need it.

3:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association for Renewable Energies

Bill Eggertson

Thank you very much for that, sir.

Once the solar program was shut down, the association that I headed at the time was stressed in terms of trying to get Canadians to understand that the OPEC oil crisis may have been over, but Canada's energy problems were not solved.

In addition to running that organization, I have worked with the national wind energy and solar industries associations and as the staff head of the Earth Energy Society, which is geothermal heat pumps. I am now with we c.a.r.e. for renewables. I've also been editor or editor-in-chief of two of the largest magazines in the world for renewable energies, and in my time off, I've worked with Finance Canada on the northern tax benefits review, under Minister Michael Wilson, and with the U.K. Foreign Office as Britain's first climate change program manager in Canada, so I come at renewables with both an environmental and an economic scope.

I've been asked to comment on your study into the barriers and challenges of implementing renewables in the north, and of course, the opportunities and the benefits that can accrue. I am no expert on the territories, so I prepared a profile on the residential sector in the three territories, using 2007 data from NRCan's Office of Energy Efficiency.

There are 34,000 households in the territories, with a total floor space of 55 million square feet. This is 0.2% of the Canadian total. The average floor space of a house in the north is 1,600 square feet, about 10% larger than the Canadian average. I could throw gigajoule terms at you, and British thermal units; we convert everything to kilowatt hours in the hope that you can understand that basic energy unit.

That means that all homes in northern Canada consume 1 billion kilowatt hours per year of secondary energy. This does not include transportation; this is purely the energy to heat your homes, heat your water, and run your appliances and lights. Across Canada all homes consume 40 billion kilowatt hours per year. The average home in the north consumes a bit more than 31,000 kilowatt hours. By square foot, that works out to 19.6 kilowatt hours per square foot, compared to 21.6 kilowatt hours per square foot for the Canadian average, so in the north you are 10% below the average energy consumption.

To show you the potential, I have just finished a major retrofit on my house. We are one of the top houses in the country. We have now dropped below 5 kilowatt hours per square foot for our house.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Eggertson, you speak very well, but when you give figures, you do it so quickly that the translation cannot keep up.

Please take all the time you need. We will cut back on the time the Conservatives have to ask you questions. Have no fear; take your time.

3:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

I will back up what we had said earlier. Just take your time. I appreciate Mr. Lemay's comments, because when you talk about statistics, it's that much more difficult.

3:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association for Renewable Energies

Bill Eggertson

I apologize again, sir. The intent was not to inundate you with statistics but to show a very superficial energy profile of homes in the north. Before we ever get into a discussion of energy, we like to know what's used, when, how, and some of the data on that. I apologize. I'll try to keep the statistics as light and frothy as possible. The bottom line, though, is simply that the Arctic territories are not as bad as what I had thought before going into the analysis.

On stationary energy use, all of the energy used in houses—which has nothing to do with transportation—and by applications in the north is actually very close to that used in the rest of Canada. In fact, 61% of the energy used in homes in the north is for heating the buildings. The national average is 63%, so it's not that far off. The north has slightly lower energy use for heating water: 12% of household energy is used to heat water, versus 18% elsewhere. The north uses more energy for appliances and light and, surprisingly, there seems to be no cooling load in the Arctic.

I throw those statistics out to underscore the fact that three-quarters of the energy used in the Arctic has nothing to do with running refrigerators, watching television, or running computers; it's for heating houses and for hot water. It's 80% in most of Canada, but this is an element of the energy use in Canada that very few people, including federal officials in NRCan, understand in terms of the potential for both energy reduction and GHG reduction, because most of the sources used in what we call green heat have high fossil fuel content.

Without getting into too many statistics, 64% of heating in the north comes from oil, 19% from gas, 10% from coal and propane, 5% from wood, and 3% from electric baseboards. Again, that is not far off the national average. Since 1990, total energy consumption in the north has increased 0.3%. In Canada, it's been 13%.

I'll skip a lot of these points and come down to the penultimate one, which is that the energy intensity of homes in the Arctic is twice as good in terms of the reduction in energy use. The Arctic has done twice as well as the national average.

The profile shows that homes in the north are not as bad, as I say, as I had expected when I started the profile, and not bad when compared with the national average, but anything that can reduce energy demand, make more efficient use of whatever energy is used, and increase the substitution by distributed resources, i.e., renewables, is in the best interests of the northern parts of Canada and Canada as a whole.

I admit to being biased, but I say that renewables work, and renewables can work in the north. Last year, the Indian and Northern Affairs Canada report “Sharing the Story” provided case studies of wind and solar thermal power at Rankin Inlet, solar PV at the recreation centre of Fort Smith and at Nunavut Arctic College in Iqaluit, solar air heating at the Weledeh school in Yellowknife, and numerous examples of district heating, waste heat recovery, and small hydro.

One of the first stories I ever did on solar power required security clearance from National Defence so that I could explain how their solar photovoltaic systems at the base in Alert worked. Sure, the panels only worked for half the year, when the sun was up, but the cost saving from not having to helicopter in diesel fuel to charge the generators gave a simple payback of three years.

Here are some little-known solar facts. The efficiency of solar PV—the photovoltaic solar cells that generate electricity—increases in cold temperatures. In the north, a cute little trick up there is that because of the latitude, you actually get more sunlight going into the solar panels because it bounces off the snow, so you get both the direct and the indirect bounce of sunlight going into solar panels up north.

Weather bases in both the Antarctic and the Arctic use wind turbines. It's a very effective technology, and wind continues to generate electricity at night, which solar power unfortunately does not.

Canada has a number of manufacturers of evacuated tube solar collectors. These can boil water in sub-zero temperatures. When I ran the geothermal association, I constantly had to convince people that the wide-scale installation of heat pumps in Sweden and Alaska proved that the cold in those countries was the same as the cold in our country. There's at least one federal building in the Arctic that has put ground coils around the foundation piles. It extracts the heat partly to warm the building, but basically to make sure that the permafrost never warms.

I look forward to questions from the members in the question-and-answer session, but your clerk did say that you wanted commentary on the ecoENERGY program for aboriginal and northern communities.

We support the principle that Canadians are responsible for Canada's energy and environmental challenges. Until recently I was heavily involved with a number of environmental groups, but I am less so now, because I've been distracted by their obsession with the tar sands and with large final emitters. Canadians are the people demanding large amounts of energy, and it is Canadians who must change their energy behaviours.

The ecoENERGY program, despite some flaws which I'll discuss in a second, does encourage Canadians to take the appropriate action. The One-Tonne Challenge was a brilliant concept, but it was badly implemented. Also, it focused on GHG emissions, greenhouse gas emissions, as a symptom rather than as the cause of the emissions.

The original ecoENERGY program was based on improvements in energy performance, but that was too complex a concept for most consumers. The current program that is being phased out is based on technology installations. That makes it easier to sell to individuals, but less strategic in its approach. For example, the rebate for geothermal heat pumps has no differentiation between a poor heat pump and a really great heat pump. The greatest gains often come from simply insulating and air-sealing buildings, but there is limited incentive in the ecoENERGY program for those options. Our house installed energy-efficient windows, but they were installed incorrectly. That meant that the energy efficiency of our house actually dropped, but I could get an incentive.

On the positive side, the program does recognize that space-conditioning energy is a major culprit for consumption and GHG emissions, which is in line with our green heat initiative. Specific to the northern ecoENERGY program, we certainly commend its emphasis on planning for efficiency and conservation. It was Amory Lovins who coined the phrase “negawatts” to explain that the cheapest energy is the energy not used. We tell people that if they're serious about renewables, they should close their windows and throw away the old fridge first. Renewables work best when the energy demand is lowest.

Also, I like the support in the northern program for baseline studies and the call to integrate renewables into infrastructure projects. However, I wonder if there is assurance that the appropriate renewable energy is being adopted. People frequently call us to ask how they can install a wind turbine so that they can get away from their hydro utility, because they don't like them. We have to spend a lot of time explaining that a wind turbine without battery storage, without inverter, without balance of system, is not going to do an awful lot for you, and that the electric plug load--the non-heating, non-water heating, electric usage--accounts for only 20%, or 25% in the north, of a home's average energy demand. Are we exorcising the correct demon? We always tell them not to replace a high-quality sine wave electric current when a low-grade thermal collector will work as well, if not better. The program's focus on reducing demand and then meeting that lower demand from renewables certainly matches our philosophy. It also supports a wide range of technologies, which avoids a single-widget approach.

Northern communities must be sustainable communities. I spent time in Timmins after the gold mines shut down, and I've seen the impact of non-sustainable extractive business models. Northern communities may have good renewable energy resources, but there are limits to exporting that green power to the load centres. I would hate to see the north used only as an exporter of resources, as I saw in the case of lumber in Timmins, for instance, especially when there are numerous opportunities to use the appropriate renewable energy technologies to develop the economy in the north as well as enhance the lifestyle of its residents.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, we c.a.r.e. promotes renewable energies, not just because they are cheaper to operate in all scenarios or because they are in most cases totally sustainable, but because they also allow a paradigm shift in the way we look at energy. Renewables avoid offshore oil spills. They avoid meltdown of reactor cores. They avoid long and vulnerable supply pipelines. They avoid the need to send soldiers into unstable political regions. They avoid community disruption and many health impacts. They avoid smokestacks and grid failures. They avoid mercurial price swings for energy. In short, renewables avoid a host of economic, environmental, and social ills at a very acceptable price, when you factor in externalities such as their ability to mitigate the impacts of anthropogenic climate change.

If you add to that the overwhelming evidence from numerous studies that job creation in renewables is higher per dollar of public investment than any other energy option, and add as well their potential for export technology if we move decisively, among many other advantages, then the question arises: why would you not go renewable?

The north does present some unique barriers and challenges for renewables, but there are also numerous opportunities and benefits for doing the right thing in the right place at the right time.

I thank you for your time and look forward to your questions.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Lemay, do you have something to say?

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Chair, could we have the text of Mr. Eggertson's presentation? Could it be given to the clerk for translation and distribution? I have to say that I did not catch everything that was said.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Yes, of course. The document will be sent for translation in the next few days. Okay?

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Okay.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you.

We will now start the questions with Mr. Bagnell. Mr. Bagnell, you have seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for being here, Bill. As you know, we've been very supportive of your organization, so it's exciting to have you here.

I know you could tell us about all sorts of things, but today I ask that you limit your comments to north of 60, as you did in your opening speech, and relate those answers to my questions.

You talked about the ecoENERGY for aboriginal and northern communities program, which was $15 million over four years starting in 2007. Did the department or anyone give you a list, or is there a list available, of the projects funded north of 60 under that program, and how effective they were? I think they were all north of 60.

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association for Renewable Energies

Bill Eggertson

I have not seen the most recent list. I do try to track down the ecoENERGY grants, and we go through access to information to obtain other data, but no, I have not seen the most recent list of projects funded north of 60.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

But it's since 2007. It's not that recent. You must have had access to some of the projects.

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association for Renewable Energies

Bill Eggertson

Yes. We find that the projects frequently are a description. They don't give enough analysis. There's no methodological, systematic approach to evaluating programs. They simply describe the program, and without a thorough knowledge of the resource base in the area, it's difficult for us to say that it was a good or bad idea. That's up to the experts at NRCan.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Okay. Maybe our researchers might ask the department if they have such a list.

Another program, the economic action plan, had a billion-dollar clean energy fund. Do you know if any of that money was spent north of 60?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association for Renewable Energies

Bill Eggertson

I don't know about specifically north of 60; no, sir.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

We've been lobbying, or at least I've been lobbying, on the fact that north of 60, things are a lot more expensive. For instance, I could have 5¢ or 6¢ per kilowatt hour electricity in my apartment here in Ottawa, and it could cost 30¢, 40¢, 50¢, or 60¢, depending on where you live in the Arctic. If you offer a government incentive of 1¢ for wind energy, 1¢ per kilowatt hour here, that would be 20% of the cost. It's pretty favourable, and a number of projects were done under that program in the past.

However, in terms of north of 60, 1¢ out of 50¢ is pretty minimal. It's 2%. It really isn't an incentive that works, so no projects were done north of 60 under such an incentive.

Would you be in favour of what I'm lobbying for, which is higher incentives for renewables? Some of them are still in the stage of not being totally economical. Higher incentives in the more remote and Arctic regions north of 60, or in other remote areas where it costs more for electricity, would make the incentive as realistic as it is in the south.

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association for Renewable Energies

Bill Eggertson

Certainly in the Northwest Territories I know the first 700 kilowatt hours of electricity are subsidized. I'm not sure at what level. It's only once you go above 700 that you start to get hit.

Our basic fundamental philosophy is that you shouldn't have state-subsidized energies. We even dislike having renewables called a subsidized technology, when it's actually the conventionals that are more highly subsidized than renewables. It just depends on how you look at the economic ledger, but there have been a number of federal programs. The name escapes me right now.

In regard to the ecoENERGY for renewable heat, there is a differentiation in terms of the subsidy paid for remote, and I believe north of 60, installations. It's a significant increase over what you would get in the southern regions, so that does exist, and yes, unfortunately, it has to be done. We want to keep the population in the north. I've heard that from the tax benefits review. You want to keep people up there. You have to make it affordable for them to stay up there, so you have to provide that type of incentive. That's a social priority for the government to undertake, so we would probably back you on that, depending on the details.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

In your study as to barriers and opportunities to economic development, do you talk about what's stopping us from using more renewables and what opportunities specific to economic development there are with renewables north of 60?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association for Renewable Energies

Bill Eggertson

After being asked to appear, I looked at it in two sectors. One is the cost of the individual to stay in the north, whether it is mine employee or a local indigenous resident of the north. What keeps them up there, keeps them happy, keeps them cost effective? Second, what can be done for companies that want to set up manufacturing processes or businesses up there? It is a major barrier if a company has to pay significantly more for electricity or heat to set up a widget manufacturing plant in the territories, and you want that; you want to diversify the economy as much as possible. Again, does that mean that we have to subsidize the energy source, or should we look a little bit more strategically--

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