Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 1st, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Members, shortly before 4:30 we're going to be voting, so if there is agreement to continue for another 10 minutes, or no more than 15 minutes, we can continue. However, the Standing Orders do prevent us from continuing at this point once the bells have begun.

Is there agreement to continue for another 10 minutes or so?

Ms. Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you.

I know the bells are ringing, and I note that it was difficult for members to get here on time. It is very difficult in this weather and in this traffic to get back on time, and I would hate to be late for a vote. So unfortunately, this time, because of the weather and because two members weren't even able to get here on time, I would say that it would probably be best if we left now, got the vote done, and came back to finish our work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay. That's fine. It requires unanimous consent to continue once the bells have begun, so there is no consent. We will have to suspend the meeting at this point.

Minister, depending on your availability, you may not be able to make it back. That's your call, but we welcome the officials to come back and join us as soon as possible after the vote.

Members will know there is another vote scheduled for 6 o'clock this evening.

We'll do our best to fit in what we can this afternoon.

Thank you for your attention. The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay. We are going to proceed under our reduced quorum rules, which require that there be at least one government member and one opposition member, and we're actually moving to Mr. Lemay's question.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Did we finish ours?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You had 35 seconds left, Mr. Bagnell, so that will go to you on the next round. You will have an extra 35 seconds.

Mr. Lemay, you may if you want pursue your question.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Am I to understand that the minister will not come back?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

That is right. The minister will not be available until the end of this meeting.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

In that case I will say at the outset—and I am addressing the parliamentary secretary specifically—that we would appreciate to welcome the minister at another meeting. I am willing to ask my questions to the departmental officers who are here today, but I think the minister will have to come back before our committee, so that we can ask him directly more questions.

As I am aware you will not have the answer to my question, I will ask you to send it in writing, and I will tell you why.

We were told by Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada that the government has allotted funds for the Family Violence Prevention Program run by Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada. There is a specific project that is of interest to us. We enquired about it and we were told that an amount of $881,918 was given to an organization under the name of Three Eagle Wellness Society. However, if we look at all the amounts which were disbursed within this program across Canada, we see that they do not usually exceed $25,000.

Yet, the Three Eagle Wellness Society received $881,918, and we cannot find the reasons behind it. I am not even sure this organization exists; if it does, it keeps a very low profile. We could send you pictures of its premises. It looks like in the old movies: there is nothing there. We made some enquiries at the High Prairie Municipal Library, which is situated right across these premises, but nobody seems to know anything about it.

Mr. Deputy Minister, would you please give us some details about the $1 million loans which have been granted to the Three Eagle Wellness Society? I know you cannot answer today, and I appreciate that.

Even more important, I would like to get some information about the following.

I went through the 2010 Public Accounts of Canada, which is a very reliable source, I presume. After looking at the 2010, 2009, 2008, 2008 and 2007 documents, I noticed, lo and behold, that in 2009-2010, there was an amount of $424,958,145 which had lapsed in your department's budget. In 2008-2009, this amount was $351,878,532, and so on. In total, an amount of $1,424,222,000 would have lapsed and would have been transferred to the Consolidated Revenue Fund. I am very concerned by this, and I hope my colleagues feel the same. I definitely need to understand what that means. I can give you all the figures, all the results of my research, everything that was done. I can tell you that these amounts went from $185,344,325 in 2005-2006 to $424,958,145 in 2009-2010, for a total of more than $1 billion. I would like to know whether this money was really transferred to the Consolidated Revenue Fund.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Go ahead, Mr. Wernick.

[Michael Wernick, Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay. We take note of your first question. We will make all the necessary research and will send the answer to this committee. It is indeed a very serious issue, and we will enquire about it as diligently as possible.

As to the second question, it has to do with methodology and the way we present our financial data. If that is of any help, we can prepare for your committee a chart showing the estimates, the approved amounts and the spent amounts.

What you see in the Public Accounts of Canada is a snapshot of final results, that is the total amount of what has been spent, within about a dollar. The difference is often due to the fact that things were not completed, or there is an agreement or a project. We often ask Parliament's approval, through this committee, to do what is called "reprofiling", that is to carry over any money from a given fiscal year so it can be spent during the next fiscal year. Therefore, this money is not returned to the fund, in most cases, like the claims. It is spent during the following year. I think we can easily prepare a chart showing that almost all the allotted funds is probably spent during the following fiscal year.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I would very much appreciate to get all this information because the total is quite high over the years. We went as far back as 2005 and 2006, up to 2010. I would appreciate to get all this information because we need to understand.

So, in your opinion, none of these funds would have been returned?

[Michael Wernick]

Maybe a few, but in most cases, like infrastructure projects and claims, we ask for Treasury Board's approval.

There is a good example today. In the budget estimates, reprofiling is the single most important vote, with an amount of almost $300 million. This means we were unable to complete an agreement during one fiscal year and it will be completed during the following one.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Fine. I will wait for the answers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

Now we'll go to Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks again for coming to the committee.

I'm going to ask two questions. If I have time left, I'll ask something else.

At the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples on Tuesday, November 23, Mr. Borbey indicated on specific claims that the amount allocated, the $2.5 billion over 10 years, included claims of $150 million and under, as well as the larger claims. In the previous minister's appearance before committee on February 6, 2008, he clearly indicated in his statement on these large claims that actually the point of the large claims process was removing it from the specific claims. So I'd like clarification on whether that $2.5 billion includes large claims as well as the claims under $150 million. That's one question.

The second question follows up on Monsieur Lemay's. We, too, looked at the public accounts. Our estimate said there was actually $1.4 billion over five years that had not been spent. What I'm hearing you say is that this money is rolled over to future years, but it's really quite odd that between 2005 and 2010 there's a rollover every single year.

In light of that question, we've been hearing rumours that there has been a freeze on capital programs for the next six years, and that basically INAC has been given direction that there will not be any additional spending. INAC's response has been that the capital plan has been fully booked until 2016. I wonder if you could confirm that, because there are rumours going around.

Around capital plans and infrastructure, I wonder if you could also tell us if any projects will be impacted by the March 31 infrastructure spending deadline.

I'll turn it over to you. For anything you can't respond to, we'd really appreciate a written response.

[Michael Wernick]

Sure.

Those are very good questions, so let me see if I can clarify them. There's a slight distinction between the jurisdiction of the tribunal and the fund that's been set aside for payments--and I'll try to answer Mr. Russell's question.

Basically, when the tribunal was set up--and you'll remember the legislation--we said--

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Wernick, this is about claims over $150 million that don't go to the tribunal. That's my understanding.

[Michael Wernick]

Yes, I'm just trying to answer two questions in one. I'm aware of six, and these include the big Mohawk claims. So these are Caledonia Six Nations, Kanesatake Oka, Kahnawake, Akwesasne, I believe Siksika, and Coldwater. The process is that we will get a mandate from cabinet and we will settle them if we can.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

And that is not to come out of the $2.5 billion?

[Michael Wernick]

If we ever settle the Six Nations claim, it would in theory come from that fund. The fund was set aside to deal with awards from the tribunal and the extra claims, those ones above $150 million.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay, so just on a point of clarification then, that $2.5 billion set-aside, because there is some confusion around that, are you saying the claims that do not go to the tribunal are not included in that $2.5 billion?

[Michael Wernick]

Sorry, no--the opposite. If we ever settled Six Nations, Kahnawake, or Kanesatake--

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Right.

[Michael Wernick]

--they would go to that fund. For the payments, if there were ever payments, they would be spread over a number of years, and they would go against that account.