Evidence of meeting #28 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afis.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
I hear what you're saying, but I'm looking at the report here, and it says you keep the losses to about 6.2%, which seems fairly reasonable and low. Realistically, is the problem with just the cost of servicing these loans?
Director, Corporate Development, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
The original model contemplated administration costs of 6% and a loan loss cost of 5%. You would charge 12% and would make a 1% profit. The administration cost is what's off base.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Thank you.
Scott, with respect to your presentation, in your 2010 audit you talk about land use plans being important for developing consistent regulatory regimes. The department officials came to our committee and talked about needing strong land use planning to develop commercial and industrial on-reserve lands.
In that context, what's the extent of the authority provided to first nations under the Indian Act to design, develop, and implement effective land use plans?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
If I may, Mr. Chair, I will turn this over to my colleague, Mr. Barrett.
Frank Barrett Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I know land use plans under the Indian Act are more restrictive because first nations don't have full control of them. Certainly, and as we've talked about previously, under the First Nations Land Management Act, first nations would have far more control of them.
I'm sorry I don't have a more specific answer for you.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Does this differ not just necessarily from FNLMA, but from planning authority under the Comprehensive Land Claims Agreements? Is that significantly different as well, and what are those differences?
Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.
If you take the spectrum, you have the Indian Act at one end of it, whereby the flexibility of the first nation—
Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
It's the most restrictive. They can only do the pieces that INAC isn't doing and delegates to them, because INAC is responsible for everything that goes on in that first nation. As we move to the FNLMA, it's much more flexible. If you move to a comprehensive land claims situation, now the first nation has full responsibility and autonomy over developing what should be on that land.
As an example, under the Indian Act, in many situations you have what they call certificates of possession. They may have been granted by the crown perhaps quite a long time ago, to the extent that often it's very difficult for the first nation to even design where roads or commercial establishments would be on the first nation. The certificates of possession effectively say that the crown still owns the land but that an individual has full rights to it, and sometimes those rights of the individual get passed on to numerous descendants, for example.
Certainly we've been told of situations of a plot of land notionally being divided among dozens of descendants of the original CP holder to the point that it's virtually impossible to know who everyone is who owns it, let alone how to regather it.
The comprehensive land claims are the way to have most use of the land.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Then as you move along that spectrum from operating under sections 53 and 60 of the Indian Act to the FNLMA and then to a comprehensive land claims agreement, the ability for land use planning increases and becomes much more...not easy, but simplified and flexible. Is that...?
Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I would say, certainly, that the flexibility become more so. It also means the capacity becomes that much more important.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
The ability to turn around decisions and those things would improve significantly as well.
Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Potentially, if you have the capacity there, yes, certainly.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
You have 10 seconds, if you can ask something in that short period of time.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Mr. Seeback.
Go ahead, Mr. Genest-Jourdain, for five minutes.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
Good afternoon, Ms. Pelletier. To begin, I would like to point out that it was an enterprise development corporation in my home community that enabled me to open my own law office a few years ago.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
We'll double-check translation and make sure your time's accommodated. I think we should try that again.
We'll turn it over to you, Mr. Genest-Jourdain.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
So, I was saying that it was an enterprise development corporation in my community that enabled me to open my own law office a few years ago.
My question deals with the training provided to people in the communities, particularly with respect to understanding banking fees and understanding the banking compensation process. Does your organization offer training to people in the community?
Director, Corporate Development, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
The training that's provided to community members comes from the AFI located in the community. Maybe in Sept-Îles it would be CDEM.
Director, Corporate Development, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
In Quebec City or other parts of the province it would be SOCCA. They would have specialized staff to assist with business plan development and training with respect to entrepreneurship.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
Thank you.
I now have some questions for Mr. Vaughan.
Mr. Vaughan, during your presentation, you said that the department had used other methods when the negotiations seemed to be at a standstill. We are still dealing with negotiations and land claims.
Would you be able to tell us about the other methods used by Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada?
Would you also be able to expand a bit on your comments? You know, the First Nations could simply refuse to negotiate or to agree. It's still an option available to one of the speakers. Could you go over these concepts?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes. Mr. Barrett could also give you an answer on the topic. However, we noted in a certain chapter for example that, from time to time, there are delays in the negotiations. There are more formal procedures.
We noted that, in circumstances where there are delays, the managers at Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, INAC, as it was previously known, used other approaches and informal approaches to advance negotiations between the first nations and the department.
Mr. Barrett, do you have more concrete examples?