Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Jan. 27th, 2014

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Absolutely.

[Karen Hamre]

One problem with the regulatory system is the lack of those land use plans. It's not the land and water board structure, per se.

There are two factors here, though—this after having said that, yes, we have to have these land use plans in place. One is that if there are any changes to the land and water board offices and the ability to have staff there, that has a huge impact on the land use planning boards.

I'm not sure if everybody is aware, but these are very small offices. They rely on each other. Sometimes they share staff. If you take staff away from a land and water board, you're going to impact the land use planning board. When something comes before the land and water board, there are discussions as to conformity with the land use plan. So if they're at an office where they can discuss conformity, it's hugely important that this discussion can take place in the region.

My understanding of the bill as it's brought forward is that the federal minister would have the ability to make policy direction to the land use planning boards. That is a huge change, and that's not at all the intent under the land claims agreement for the land use plans. They have to have three levels of approval. They have to have the approval of the first nation, of the Government of the Northwest Territories, and of the federal government. The ministerial authority to give policy directions to land use planning boards absolutely flies in the face of that fundamental part of the land claim agreement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Seeback. We'll come back to you.

We want to welcome Mayor Roland. We appreciate the fact that you have taken the time to come and join us. We appreciate that you have made a great effort to be here.

We'll turn it over to you to make your opening statement. Then we'll probably have some questions for you.

[Floyd Roland, Mayor, Town of Inuvik]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize, but I thought I'd be a little earlier getting off the plane and making my way over here.

I don't have any prepared comments. My comments will be more from a historical point of view of being a resident and involved at the local level of government with an aboriginal organization initially and through public government and to the point where the agreement in principle was signed by the Government of the Northwest Territories along with the federal government.

I go to the big picture, I guess, to say that the north has been asking for decades, as far back as I can remember, to when leaders used to gather for regional meetings as well as when we'd hear the news in the territory about the request to gain control over what happens in the north, that those decisions be made by northerners. That debate has gone on in many meetings. I believe that even our representative, the member for Western Arctic, can confirm that at many meetings the leadership across the north has asked and made statements to fact that northerners need to be in control of what happens in the north.

This bill has now come to this point, and I must say it's been a long time in the works. There have been many debates, many discussions of what it should be, what should happen with it when it first comes over. There was some discussion even at the legislative assembly when I was still there regarding what legislation should be brought over and what changes should be made immediately. As we all know, government trying to bring over legislation from another level is time-consuming and challenging at best. It was felt that for a smooth transition with the concerns of industry and other groups across the north, it would be brought in mirroring what's happening now, and then the government of the day in the Northwest Territories could start introducing changes as it sees fit.

I welcome this day that a federal committee has come north to discuss northerners taking control of their destiny and future, and what is in place and not in place. Even the discussion when I came in about the makeup of these things shows that the more authority that comes north, the better off northerners will be and our future will be when we have people directly involved in making those decisions and making changes to what they see is best for northerners.

There will come a time, I believe, in the north when it's northerners who will be making these decisions, debating among each other what is required to be put in place and who is to benefit from all of this work that happens.

In short, that's where I am at this point. In my role as the mayor of the community of Inuvik, I believe it will work closely with the decisions that will be made. My region has been reliant if not on government, then on industry, and has always been challenged with the fact that—I'm not saying this to be insulting or anything—someone from afar is making key decisions on who benefits and what's in place for northerners when it comes to our own front yard, not even our back yard, but our front yard.

I am keen to see this follow through. We weighed the options heavily at the time when we were considering signing an agreement in principle with the federal government in moving this to the next stage. The time for debate has happened. While there is some debate needed in the sense of how the transition occurs, I think the key decision has been made and that is to give responsibility to northerners. Short and blunt and to the point, that's how I come to the table.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

We'll turn to Ms. Jones now for her questions. Then we'll have an opportunity for the other members to follow up with their questions, with the addition of a witness.

Ms. Jones.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Witnesses, thank you for your presentations.

This probably will be my last opportunity to address you as a committee member, and I want to say that it has been a wonderful experience discussing this issue around a table with the people who live in the Northwest Territories, people who represent the various governments and organizations who are affected by this. I really want to thank you for taking the time to come out and tell us how this impacts you and giving us your feedback so that we can do a better job representing you on this issue in the Parliament of Canada.

What I've heard today is that devolution in itself works. The only thing that's standing between cutting the ribbon and eating the cake on devolution in the Northwest Territories right now is the fact that government has attached the changes to the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act. That's unfortunate, but that's what we're presented with.

What I'm hearing from people is that you would like to see the bill separated and have a separate debate. That is something we as a committee can undertake, but it seems that it's not an option right now for the minister. In the context of that, we've heard there are a number of amendments that we can bring forward. I would ask that you have those amendments sent to all the committee members and be very clear on the direction you would like us to take.

I agree that when something works, you don't need to change it. We work hard to find things that are effective in the way we do our jobs, the way we make decisions, the way we interact with each other. It's important when we have that, that we be able to maintain and strengthen it and not necessarily change it or weaken it.

This will be my final question today. In the context of what we're dealing with right now, it's my understanding from the premier and his government that if this bill does not move forward, it will impede development and the progress within the economy of the Northwest Territories in the short term. What we're hearing from aboriginal governments is that it's weakening their power and giving them less say, and therefore they're prepared to wait and take the long route to do it right.

What I want to ask you is what your position is today. If this bill cannot be separated and goes through the Parliament of Canada in the form in which it is today, are you supportive or not supportive of it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I'm not seeing anybody jumping at the chance to answer, but we'll turn to Ms. Wenman to begin with.

[Christine Wenman]

We'll reiterate what has been said in the brief, which is that we anticipate implications to efficiency and an investment environment with the proposed changes.

As for answering the question directly, we haven't discussed that with our membership.

[Karen Hamre]

Alternatives North is a volunteer organization. We have as members church groups, anti-poverty groups, women's groups, labour groups across the NWT, and we chose to look specifically at those changes to the MVRMA. We didn't discuss the rest of the bill.

[Floyd Roland]

I was with the Government of the Northwest Territories for 16 years, and prior to that I was with the Inuvialuit Hunters and Trappers Committee and the claimant groups were signing—the Gwich'in were the next to sign—the overlap agreements we had worked on together. The continuing self-government negotiations and land claim negotiations that go on in the Northwest Territories in fact I think speak for themselves to say there is a need for that change to occur and to be done by northerners. So I think the comment about why we should change something that works only focuses on a small piece of this.

If it comes down to the fact, I would say I'd still go along with the public government side and those aboriginal groups who signed along with the government and followed up in this legislative assembly that sits now and that there's enough there to see that there's more benefit and decision-making authority that occurs in the north.

I'll give you examples of decisions made by representatives who spent little time in the north, who got their brief from reports, and then made decisions based on those that were not necessarily in the best interests of northerners. When you're discussing with different groups along the way, the message becomes very unclear when you have a number of groups running to different ministers' offices in Ottawa requesting that things change or not change or change in a certain way. I think one of the challenges right now that will be facing northerners is the question regarding who will be at the table to help make those decisions as this authority moves north. The Government of the Northwest Territories has in fact over quite a number of years been incorporated into governmental tables and aboriginal leader circles to sit down with the premier of the day to go over the issues that are of concern to all northerners and to try to come up with consensus in those areas.

So I see this as another one of those tools through which they will have a direct voice right to the leadership of the Government of the Northwest Territories, which, when you look at that assembly, is made up of elected northerners from across this great territory.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Go ahead, Ms. Brown.

[Sara Brown]

Thank you.

Again I would echo the comments of Mayor Roland and our presentation. We're going to focus our comments on a strong, empowered, and vibrant territorial government. That's what we hope to see. Unfortunately we're not comfortable commenting on the second part of the act. We'll leave our comments there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I appreciate that. Thank you so much.

We'll turn now to Mr. Bevington. I don't know if you had any follow-up questions. We want to give you an opportunity with the addition of Mayor Roland.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you, Mayor Rolland, for coming here today. You were premier in a government that wrote letters saying you weren't in favour of the proposed changes to the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act. Was that your position at the time, and is it still your position?

[Floyd Roland]

We had set up a regional leaders table at which the grand chiefs and presidents of aboriginal groups along with the territorial government sat together to discuss certain issues. When this debate was being had in Ottawa, the Government of the Northwest Territories supported aboriginal groups, and I believe still does, when it came to the changes that were being looked at and not understanding what they might mean. In fact we think it would be appropriate to strengthen them through resources—human and financial—to make sure the work can be done. Barring that happening, then as I say, the control to northerners coming forward is important.

There were some areas in which decisions had to be made in the discussion about what level of authority is actually coming north. But taking a step back and looking at the big picture, I would say we need to move the decision-making north so we who live here will benefit from the decisions made, or we need to put in place conditions that we feel best meet the needs of northerners.

Thank you.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Well, here today most of the discussion and debate has been around the super-board. Now, you're a claimant beneficiary for the Inuvialuit. Is that correct? How do you think your claimant group would like to see their regional structure taken away?

[Floyd Roland]

I guess that's where you go back to the actual land claim agreements and what's been put in place as being.... As we all know, those land claim agreements are constitutionally protected. In terms of some of the work anteriorly put up, there's room for discussion and debate about that.

Right now I know that there were concerns of some change to, for example, the NWT Water Board and what that might mean for the Inuvialuit on this board, or any changes coming forward. But as I point out, the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation, the chairperson, signed the agreement to move this forward.

Again, taking a look at the big picture and the authority that affects us, we believe it should be moved north. That's looking at the big picture. Yes, there are challenges within it. We all know that when governments open a piece of legislation, especially at a level like the NWT Act, it doesn't happen very often. Then, as we're having happen at this table, as required by protocol and processes, a debate about northern issues is happening, whether it be in the media or at this table or as will happen in Parliament, as we hopefully see this thing move forward and pass.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

We'll turn to Mr. Strahl for the final questions.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for your presentations and for making yourselves available to us.

As I think this is the last question of the day, I want to thank everyone involved, from the hotel to our analysts and clerk and all the support staff, for putting in a really full day. This is the equivalent of four full meetings of the AANO committee in Ottawa in one day. That would take us two weeks normally, and we've managed to hear that many witnesses and question that many witnesses here in a single day. I just would like to thank everyone who's made that possible.

Mayor, I had the privilege of coming up to Inuvik with the Prime Minister a couple of weeks ago, joining a number of folks in the community centre there. It's a beautiful facility. Mr. Leef and I were both there, and we noted that there was really only one point of spontaneous applause at the event. We talked about, obviously, hundreds of millions of dollars for a new highway. That got some attention. But when devolution was mentioned, there was actual spontaneous applause in the room for bringing this decision-making authority to the north.

As a former premier, and as someone whose signature is on some of the documents that have led us to this bill, can you can talk to how this will benefit Inuvik specifically, and the whole NWT as well, with the changes that are proposed, bringing that...? As Tina said as well, Ottawa is a long way away, and the GNWT is here.

How do you think that devolution process will benefit your community and the Northwest Territories as a whole?

[Floyd Roland]

It will be a benefit at a number of levels, and representing a community that will see some benefit through increased jobs moving north, that's a direct benefit. From a municipal point of view, the more taxpayers in the community paying their taxes the better when it comes to providing those services.

I must apologize. Unfortunately, I wasn't at that event as I was ill. I would have liked to be there to hear what was said, but I did receive positive feedback on that from community members and leadership that were there. The comments on Twitter and Facebook were all positive.

In northerners' eyes, I think the biggest thing you can see is decisions being made that they can understand. Right now a lot of decisions being made, as was done in the past, didn't quite reflect the day-to-day requirements of our communities.

I was born and raised in Inuvik, and I've seen the boom and bust cycles. It's always frustrating when you dig a little more and find out the decisions being made and the conditions being put in place don't necessarily reflect those on the ground in the community that call this area home. That was always a challenge, especially when you sat and listened to many of the elders talk about a need for control in the north.

The very short side of it from a community perspective, the immediate positive response would be there are jobs coming north. The more important thing and long-term impact to the development of the north is that those making the decisions and preparing the analysis will call this place home. From the very interaction they have at the street level, at the grocery store, at the gas bar, at the regional leaders table, they will know exactly what the feeling is and what concerns need to be addressed as the leadership in the north so that decision-making power is important.

Your comment earlier fits into that big discussion about decisions being made by northerners or by non-northerners. Not to be disrespectful at all, but there's an expertise level throughout the north that has come from other places in Canada that has often discussed the way we should be, what should happen, and how it should happen.

I was in tourism before I got into politics. One of the things I would say was that when Mackenzie and others decided to explore the north, and they got as far as my end of the territory, they paddled up the rivers and saw there were people on the shore waving, and they thought, “What a lovely, friendly bunch of people this is. Let's go and check them out.” When they stopped, they realized they weren't necessarily waving. They were just swatting the bugs. That's an image I sometimes first put on the table to gauge the impact of individuals who want to talk about the north.

The other one is how many people have been up to Sachs? That's within the Inuvialuit territory. That was the white fox capital of the Northwest Territories at one time, a very traditional community, our most northern community. It has three RCMP outposts. When you talk sovereignty and you talk Canada, we live there. My father travelled from Booth Island, as they called it, by dogsled and made a snow house every night to travel to the delta. That is in the lifetime of northerners as we discuss it.

While we haven't had the opportunity of southern Canada to make so-called big decisions and influence key decision-makers, we have adapted and lived the north, and we will continue to do that. This is another one of those adaptations, bringing in the authority to the north for decision-making.

I tell you, as I've come to Yellowknife this week, I'm going to spend the week knocking on ministers' doors within the Government of the Northwest Territories to talk about our taxation system, our education system, and our health system. It's better than my going all the way to Ottawa to try to get those meetings, which is not as easy to do definitely when it comes to northerners and those impacts and decisions that are made.

While I say yes, many decisions that were made were a benefit to northerners. There were also many decisions; we're cleaning some of those or we will be forever reminded of them right in this community of the city of Yellowknife. Giant Mine is a result of decisions made by a past government many years ago, adding into the decades. They had a process built in and when it came to northerners, what were northerners called? Even the Government of the Northwest Territories until a few years ago was called “the stakeholder”. Excuse me but I'm not a stakeholder. This is my home.

I'll put this as politely as possible but you coming to the territories to have this meeting, I would consider you a stakeholder as we see the development of the north. I'm passionate about the north. I never believed I'd be in politics, but I tell you, from listening to the elders and the people of the north saying, “We want decisions made in the north; we want better decisions made in the north”, I got involved. That's one of the reasons why I chose to come to this committee meeting, to share some thoughts and comments with you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

I think that's a good place to end. I can tell you that what we've heard today is representation from people who are truly wanting to be in the public service. There are people who have diverging opinions and there are people who come with different ideas. People have been respectful and helpful and it's been a meaningful day for us. We certainly appreciate everyone's involvement. Of course, you being our last panel, we appreciate your willingness to be patient with us all day. We've spent a fair bit of time hearing testimony and you've been here as well.

Thank you.

I will dismiss our witnesses. I will put out some information to the public who are still here.

I wanted to inform people that our committee continues our work. We will continue to have hearings with regard to this bill. If individuals have submissions or briefs or want to contribute something, please make that available to committee members or to our clerk as soon as possible. That information is helpful. I should also note that the Senate committee continues to do their work. They're also holding hearings with regard to this. Some of you will be meeting with senators on those hearings as well. There's a lot of work that continues. We'd certainly appreciate and be willing to accept anything that individuals may have to contribute as we move forward.

Again, I want to thank our witnesses who are here at the table right now. For people who have contributed throughout the day, it's been a very important day for us. I also want to thank Mr. Strahl and the people who have facilitated this session. Certainly, this doesn't happen without a lot of work. We want to thank everyone who's been involved in making this happen. As well, I want to thank those people who have joined us for the day. It's been an important and meaningful day and we appreciate your contributions.

With that, I will adjourn our meeting. We'll see you all again sometime.

The meeting is adjourned.