Evidence of meeting #20 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Counsel, Operations and Programs Section, Department of Justice
Yes, powers of attorney are made by first nations people, the same as any other Canadians.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
And there's nothing in the Indian Act that would govern a power of attorney.
Counsel, Operations and Programs Section, Department of Justice
No, I don't believe so.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Mr. Saranchuk, when you were presenting to the committee, you indicated that a review could explore whether improvements might be made to the Indian Act estate system and whether the judicial function could be devolved. Do you have anything more specific on that which you would suggest the committee look at?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
No.
Do you have any thoughts on that in terms of the judicial devolvement?
Director, Indian Moneys, Estates and Treaty Annuities, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The only thought I would have is—and this has come up through internal discussions—it's a question of expertise and a recognition that the department doesn't necessarily have the expertise to deal with these sorts of issues. On the other hand, if you maintain the administrative role, there would be benefits in the sense that while there would certainly be cost benefits for individuals—
NDP
Director, Indian Moneys, Estates and Treaty Annuities, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
For individuals, we were thinking. In other words, as things stand, as Mr. Saranchuk mentioned, first nations individuals don't need to pay for probate or hire lawyers to get their wills approved. That falls into the category of the administrative side of things.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The judicial side would largely be the voiding of the will, say, or the reviewing or the revoking of appointment. Presumably, the easiest way for that to occur would be to have the provincial system apply there. As opposed to somebody making an application to the minister, it would simply be a straight application of provincial law with respect to those functions. So, essentially, what I'm trying to say is provincial courts would take over.
NDP
Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
There would be associated costs with that. It's the see-saw between not having the minister involved in their day-to-day lives and having them treated like other Canadians, there being the pros and cons, I think, involved there.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
I think probably people would generally welcome having first nations treated like other Canadians, which would mean they would have access to clean drinking water, clean housing, adequate incomes, and all those kinds of things.
I'm concerned about any suggestions that download costs to first nations without perhaps the capacity to find the money to actually pay for some of those costs. That would be a concern.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The suggestion wasn't made in the spirit of downloading costs; in fact, it's the other point I was trying to make at the end. These were just considerations to try to identify the boulders in the road that you would want to consider.
The other consideration which we pointed out was the fact that some of these services are provided at no cost right now to individuals—as I already said, at no cost. As I said, there would be implications, of course, for people in remote communities having to try to probate a will, where right now they can do it via regional officials of the department.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Are there specific people who you would recommend we call in before the committee to provide testimony?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Again, it's obviously at your discretion, but I think it would be important to hear from provinces. I think, generally, in the provinces you'd want to have a different cross-section, Quebec, for sure, but there would be some bigger ones with larger aboriginal populations that you would want to hear from. And it's not just the provinces writ large, it's usually the—
Director, Indian Moneys, Estates and Treaty Annuities, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Provincial guardians and trustees.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
—provincial guardians and trustees who deal with these sorts of issues. They're in a position to indicate how they deal with estate issues that are brought before them. Obviously, again, as I said at the outset, this is an inherently legal issue. The CBA would likely have views. The Indigenous Bar Association would likely have views, and obviously first nations groups, communities, and individuals would all have views.
In the same way that unfortunately we can't answer all your questions about provincial systems, I'm not sure there's a great understanding out there generally about the first nations system. I would suggest that probably at the end of this hour and a half or two hours there's going to be a much greater understanding in this room than there is out there generally, not even in the broader society, but potentially in certain first nations communities. It's an awfully complex system. We have to go through 42 to 50, and your last question showed that, the complexity of trying to put together all those factors in one question.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Mr. Gray mentioned there were two jurisdictions that take a much more active role. Was my understanding correct?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It was more our regional offices that take a more active role in those areas.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
It's the regional offices. Okay.
I thought jurisdictionally there were some first nations that were more actively engaged and they might be good witnesses, but it was the department. Okay.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We can reflect on that, if you'd like. I'd like to reflect on who—
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
That would be great because most of us here aren't lawyers. We have some very good lawyers, I might point out, but I think it's important that we get advice and guidance from people who are experts in that area.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I would just add to that. It's also the practical.... I'm not an expert, but I'm becoming an expert in this, and it's the practical realities associated here and the costs.
As one of my colleagues was saying, as any of us who unfortunately have had a deceased family member and have had to go through probating a will and dealing with estates would know, it's a difficult time at the best of times. Trying to do it is difficult, whether or not you're in the Indian Act system, the provincial system, or both systems. There are complexities, so I'd recommend working that through as well.