Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 26th, 2018

[Chief Rebecca Knockwood]

I was going to sum them up together because they could be very clear together. I'll do Sisson mine, Sisson Brook, as well as energy east.

When it comes to any projects within New Brunswick, the New Brunswickers divide themselves up, specifically the government. They still go by Ganong Line, which separates the Maliseet and the Mi'kmaq. The Mi'kmaq were never consulted when it came to Sisson mine. When it came to energy east, we had to do a lot of fighting to get consulted there. When it comes to fracking, from my understanding, the Mi'kmaq were never consulted. They were just put in there, and they started. That's why Elsipogtog had the fracking issue. If we had been consulted first and talked to, I think things probably would have been a lot different. Right now we're arguing with the province in regard to Sisson mine because they did ignore the Mi'kmaq. We're doing a TK study now that shows a lot of our Mi'kmaq people have hunted and fished within the areas of Sisson mine project as well as the energy east.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

My question is based around that premise. Having had numerous conversations with Chief Paul, and Chief Ross and Chief Candice Paul and others, there are differing opinions on that issue, but those would be the three communities that would be the closest to Sisson. I recognize the differentiation between the Maliseet and the Mi'kmaq in New Brunswick and how that's traditionally been separated. But the federal process concluded that one group would be adversely affected and one group would not be adversely affected. How do you feel Bill C-262 would have changed the outcome of that?

I can also put that over to you, Mr. Simon.

[Derek Simon]

I've been involved in that file directly.

One of the big reasons they reached the conclusion that it affected one group and not the other is because they did an indigenous knowledge study for one group and not for the other. I recognize that's something that's being rectified in the proposed changes to the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act,. Again, if you're going into these processes with a view to obtaining consent, as opposed to simply going through the procedural steps of consultation, things like an indigenous knowledge study become of a higher order of magnitude.

In that project, it simply wasn't considered important by either level of government, or the proponent, to fund an indigenous knowledge study for the Mi’kmaq, so there's no way of determining what the impact on the rights of the Mi’kmaq was, with respect to that specific project.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

From my limited knowledge of the project, even though it's in my riding, I would say that proximity to the mine site was also something that was taken into consideration.

If a study had been undertaken—by the other group that felt that they were adversely affected, that hadn't been consulted—and had been taken into consideration, do you feel it would have changed the outcome?

[Derek Simon]

Yes. We've subsequently done an indigenous knowledge study for the energy east project and interviewed about 85 land users as part of that study, and it showed a significant amount of use in the area of the Sisson mine.

The other thing that it didn't really take into account was... There's no question that the Maliseet Nation has more use in that area than the Mi'kmaq do, but because of the loss of that area, it's displacing Maliseet land users. Where are they going? Six kilometres across the line into the Miramichi watershed.

It has a knock-on effect on the Mi'kmaq as well, in the sense that the loss of their hunting and fishing grounds in the Sisson mine area puts more pressure on the immediately adjacent Miramichi watershed.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Okay. Perfect.

For either of you, in your opinion, what would be the best next steps forward in creating that consensus, specifically in New Brunswick, towards ensuring that projects—with the proper consultation—do have the ability to move forward?

[Chief Rebecca Knockwood]

I would say, talk to us first. The Mi'kmaq have been an afterthought in any major projects that have been done within New Brunswick.

We're not here to hinder any work at all. We're here to work together with everybody. Maybe if they would come and talk to the Mi'kmaq people and let us know, it would make an easy transition. It would make everything a little easier.

[TJ Harvey, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Perfect. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

Questioning will now move into the five-minute round. We'll go to MP Arnold Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm sure those will be the short minutes that I always get.

Thank you, Chiefs, for being here today. It's much appreciated.

Chief Leween, could you outline a couple of the success stories that your organization has had, some of the major projects that you've been involved with?

[Chief Corrina Leween]

Currently, we're in the feasibility study stage for one of the major projects, a multi-million dollar project that we want to see happen within my territory as well three other first nations in the area. The success story there is that four first nations are getting together to actually talk about doing a project together. The main reason for the project is the environmental fix that this project can do for our territory, which is flooded yearly. Our graves are washed into the water. We want to fix that.

The second is the economical portion of it: if it can provide jobs, if it can provide an economic benefit to the communities. That, in itself, is a success story.

We're so new that we don't have any projects that we've already completed. This project that I'm talking about is 36 years on our desk, and it's finally growing legs and getting into the feasibility stage. That's the success that I can speak of in our community.

That's not to say that there aren't other projects that we are looking at. There are a couple more projects that different communities in the northern area of British Columbia are speaking to us about, wanting to get the technical advice to head into the feasibility study.

We may start to mushroom with projects in our territories, as they see this pilot project on the table, and where it's going to go.

Niilo may want to add something to that.

[Niilo Edwards, Executive Director, First Nations Major Projects Coalition]

Just briefly here, I will build on the chief's comments. What success looks like for us in this pilot project is to take the last three years of our work, our technical models, and begin to apply them in a capacity sense to get this project off the ground.

While the project may impact a certain number of members of the coalition, the information is shared freely, so our entire membership can learn as we go and use those examples of success at home for whatever they may be faced with.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Chief Knockwood, thanks for being here today as well.

We've been supplied with these really cool, handy-dandy, pocket-size versions of the United Nations declaration, and when I look through it, I don't disagree with the whole idea that this should be part of the national discussion. What's interesting though is that we always talk about major projects. We talk about energy east, mining projects, and things like that, and yet I read that it refers to anything that affects our first nations.

First nations have been a part of Canada since.... I think the word “Canada” is even a first nations word, so how do...?

Do the people of your first nation vote in general elections? Would that be considered part of the free, prior, and informed consent when it comes to laws of general application, such as the marijuana legislation, the firearms legislation, or anything that we're dealing with in this place?

Is it only for major projects that free, prior, and informed consent is part of that, or is it for all these other things that we deal with as well?

[Chief Rebecca Knockwood]

Okay, I just want to clarify.

When it comes to voting, not all our members vote.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

They do vote.

[Chief Rebecca Knockwood]

Not all of them, though.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Not all of them.

[Chief Rebecca Knockwood]

Not all of them, no.

If we want to make a change within my province, we have to get our people out to vote, but in regard to--

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Is that a conscious decision because they don't want to participate?

[Chief Rebecca Knockwood]

It's just their way of thinking. They feel that they don't need to be governed. Back in the day, we were never governed by non-native--

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

So it is a conscious decision?

[Chief Rebecca Knockwood]

It is. We have people over my way who are still old school, who are still “back in the day”.

In regard to your question, I would think that everything should be talked to...in regard to first nations because you said we were here; we were the first people.

Anything--

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Well, what I said was that we built Canada together, right?

[Chief Rebecca Knockwood]

Right, but anything that is coming across, be it a pipeline, be it marijuana, affects first nations people, right?

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

We're going to move now--