Evidence of meeting #5 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
I'm also just curious. We're three years into it and there's still no target. I'm just curious what the roadblocks are here.
Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Again, it will vary target by target, but sometimes it's just the ongoing nature of the work itself, and so sometimes you don't have a situation where you arrive at a finite point. Concluding an agreement is a finite point; it's binary—you've either met it or you haven't. Other things that you work on would be of an ongoing nature, so it's harder to set exactly what the target might be there.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
I appreciate that.
If you are laying this out in your departmental plan—I agree that what you're saying is true—why bother putting it in if you're not going to measure it or have any...? Is it just kind of...? I don't even know how to explain it, but I'm looking for clarification, if I could.
Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Again, I'm happy to do a more full and detailed briefing on these specific pieces, if that's useful.
In some of the incidences, we know that these things are important to do. We know they're important to tackle and to take on, but the nature of the activity itself and the time frame in which you do it makes it much harder than with some more binary things. We don't want to lose the value and the importance of undertaking the activity—we want to make sure that's underlined—but figuring out exactly when you would say that you were done is a much harder thing to agree upon. It's more important to understand that they're actually being undertaken and accomplished.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Okay, I have one minute. Sorry, I might have to jump in here. I do have one more question that I want to get in if I could.
In 2018-19, the government spent $15.7 billion and had 113 indicators for the Department of Indigenous Services and the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations, but I think this goes to your answer. Of those indicators, 31 or 27% were met; 20 were not met, 17.7%; in 52 the result was to be achieved, so in other words, not met, and were pretty vague for a bunch of reasons, as you mentioned. The main estimates now say we've spent $19.2 billion this year. Better is always possible, so better than 27% success rate this time—
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Are we hopeful? Are we looking to the stars?
Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
We're very hopeful. We continue on with the work. We continue to advance—
Conservative
Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Well, it's an item that is continuing on for a longer period of time, too. If we're still sitting at 27% at the end date we've set for these things, that would be a big problem, of course, but we intend very much not to be at that point when we get to the ending.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bob Bratina
Our time is up on that round.
We'll conclude with Mr. Powlowski for five minutes, please, and then we have to get to voting on the estimates.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Well, appropriately, as I'm eating my plate of vegetables here, which would cost $50 in a northern community, I want to ask Mr. Vandal about the nutrition north program.
Maybe this is a bit of an observation, but maybe you can comment on this. I know this because I went to a food bank presentation in Thunder Bay. The food bank in Thunder Bay sends a lot of donated food to northern fly-in communities. The presenters had slides there showing the prices of food in the northern stores in those fly-in communities. They showed the price and then the price with the nutrition north subsidy, and the differences were really trivial. A little pod of strawberries was $9 without the subsidy, and it was $8.50. They had repeated examples like that.
In one of our earlier committee meetings, I mentioned this. I'm not sure if it was Mr. Watson or someone else who replied to this that they had been to Nunavut and in Nunavut the prices of milk, cheese and things were fairly similar to downtown Toronto prices. They said that the amount of the subsidy is proportional to the distance from the built-up areas.
It seems that this results in a real inequality. People in fly-in communities such as Attawapiskat, Pikangikum and Sandy Lake had very little subsidy, and nutritious food basically was unaffordable, whereas for people in the really far north communities it was much more affordable.
Maybe it's just a comment to look into. I can ask a question after this.
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
No, I could try to address that. I mean, everything is incredibly expensive in the north because there are no roads. That's what it comes down to. I can understand that if you're going to the far Arctic to provide food it would be more expensive to get it there than to a location that's closer. That's just a very preliminary analysis.
I do know, based on reviews that have been done through the nutrition north advisory council, that at the end of the week a basket of food in the north has been reduced.... I won't say significantly, because it's still too expensive, but it has been reduced.
That's why we're putting more money into the subsidy end. That's why we're trying to find other programs like the harvesters program. We're working with rights holders and people who live in the north on trying to be more creative. It's an important issue. It's such a fundamentally important issue that we need to do better.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Okay. My other question was given to me. Usually with questions that are given to me I throw them away and make up my own questions, but I like this question. It relates to British Columbia. I have three kids in British Columbia. Two of them vote for Gord Johns' party and one of them votes for Bob Zimmer—
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
—so I don't know where I went wrong as a father, but I thought this was a good question.
In September 2019, British Columbian representatives and participating indigenous nations in British Columbia co-developed the British Columbia specific recognition and reconciliation policy, also known as the B.C. policy. I have heard that this new policy has removed most if not all of the obstacles that prevented first nations in B.C. to fully participate in the B.C. treaty process. Can you explain what obstacles this new policy is removing?
I really am wondering what policies those were.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Thank you for question.
Again, it follows up on Madame Bérubé's question.
The comprehensive claims policy was really getting in the way. It was based on loans. People had to sign away their rights: cede and surrender, extinguishment of rights. In this new B.C. policy, which I'm happy to table with the committee, you will see that all of those impediments have been removed to the satisfaction of the B.C. first nations in the treaty process, but also to the Government of British Columbia and the Government of Canada.
We believe this really will allow people who stalled in the treaty process, who didn't want to have to pay back $20 million in loans.... By forgiving those loans, by paying back.... And particularly, Bob was talking about Yukon. Up there, most of those nations had paid back their loans and were paying back the money to those communities. They now have that money to use on their priorities. I think this has been a huge success. I think it really is what other nations are now looking at, together with what the already self-governing nations have done in a collaborative fiscal policy, which really gives them the money outside of the Indian Act to run their governments and basically get maybe three times more than the money they would have got under the Indian Act.
It means this has helped with the negotiation, but the incentive of why to do the hard work to get to self-governing is actually worth the hard work these nations are doing to get there.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bob Bratina
Thank you very much. We're at the time right there, and we're over time on our meeting, but I thought it was a very good, productive meeting.
We have some things to do, including the matter of the vice-chair.
Did you want to...?
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bob Bratina
No, we're not. We have to vote on the main estimates.
DEPARTMENT OF INDIGENOUS SERVICES Vote 1—Operating expenditures....$1,949,217,820 Vote 5—Capital expenditures..........$6,832,498 Vote 10—Grants and contributions..........$10,741,544,381
(Votes 1, 5 and 10 agreed to)
CANADIAN HIGH ARCTIC RESEARCH STATION Vote 1—Program expenditures..........$29,453,623
(Vote 1 agreed to)
DEPARTMENT OF CROWN-INDIGENOUS RELATIONS AND NORTHERN AFFAIRS Vote 1—Operating expenditures..........$1,528,290,836 Vote 5—Capital expenditures..........$268,287 Vote 10—Grants and contributions..........$3,309,017,994 Vote L15—Loans to Indigenous claimants..........$25,903,000
(Votes 1, 5, 10 and L15 agreed to)
The votes are all carried.
Shall I report the votes to the House?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bob Bratina
Thank you very much.
Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, we have some—
Yes, Mr. Anandasangaree.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Mr. Chair, I would like to nominate Ms. Bérubé for vice-chair of the committee.
Liberal