Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 25th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Minister Vandal.

Minister Miller, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations]

Thank you, Chair.

Hello, bonjour, kwe, unnusakkut.

I want to begin by acknowledging, as Dan did, that we're together here on the Algonquin Anishinabe people's territory, as we are here appearing in Ottawa.

I'm at the INAN committee today to explain the 2021-22 supplementary estimates and the 2022-23 main estimates for Crown-Indigenous Relations Canada. Joining me, mostly virtually, are Daniel Quan-Watson, Darlene Bess, Martin Reiher and Mary-Luisa Kapelus.

As we look to close out 2021-22, these supplementary estimates reflect a net increase of $317.9 million, which includes $186.6 million in new funding.

The new funding will allow us to deliver on key departmental priorities and indigenous priorities. For example, essential to supporting reconciliation at a fundamental level is $42.2 million in funding for the continued implementation of the residential schools missing children community support funding.

I'd hasten to say at the same time that it is only a small snapshot of what has been promised and indeed funded to communities across the country to this date. I'd be glad to speak to it in more detail should the questions arise. The initiative is key to addressing the ongoing legacy of colonialism and impacts on the residential school system in particular. It supports survivors, families and communities as they continue to look for their children who never returned home and also provide support so that they may commemorate, mourn and heal in the way they choose.

In addition to the supplementary estimates, there is also an inclusive amount of $51.1 million for the Métis nation housing strategy. As you are aware from the ongoing study, safe, adequate and affordable housing provides the foundation for individual families to achieve better health outcomes and socio-economic outcomes.

As we look ahead to the new fiscal year of 2022-2023, the main estimates will amount to approximately $5.8 billion. This reflects a net increase of $1.1 billion over last year.

We continue to work with Aboriginal partners to fully implement the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada's calls to action. Part of this work includes the national plan to end the national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women, girls and 2ELGBTQIA+ people. These measures are supported by $108.8 million in the department's estimates. These investments will support new shelters, among other things, and increase the capacity of indigenous women's organizations to provide services and support new models of community safety.

Finally, I want to say a few words about land claims in particular. The amount identified for specific claims settlements is just over $2.3 billion in the estimates. The settlement of land claims, additions to reserves, and treaty settlement agreements are essential to rebuilding trust with indigenous communities, to righting wrongs, to ensuring justice, and so on. We cannot build trust, we cannot talk about self-determination, and we cannot move forward on reconciliation without addressing the issue of land, because land issues are one of the main causes of socio-economic inequality among first nations, Inuit and Métis.

To say that at some points we are throwing money at the problem is often misunderstanding that monetary compensation plays an essential role in restorative and reparatory justice and allows us to move on, on an equal-to-equal basis. There are many other instruments that I'd be eager to talk to you about at the committee, but as we apprehend what may seem in appearance to be large sums are often sums that have come due for over sometimes decades, and indeed centuries.

I appreciate the opportunity to explain the department's spending forecast today, and I look forward to answering any questions you may have.

Meegwetch, qujannamiik, marsi, thank you, merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Minister. We'll proceed with the first round of questions.

Mr. Vidal, you have six minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ministers, for being here today.

Minister Miller,16 of the 20 first nations along the route of the Coastal GasLink pipeline have signed agreements to acquire a 10% equity stake in the project. These communities also have other business partnerships including project supply chain contracts, mutual benefit agreements, etc. This obviously allows them to invest in thriving communities through investments in culture, sports, health and education programs as well as infrastructure. What we're talking about here is an opportunity of a lifetime for long-term, generational economic prosperity, but the equity options can only be executed once the pipeline actually is in service. We've seen extremely violent protests. We've seen rhetoric both on the ground and online by celebrities, by foreign-funded extremists.

I don't see any mention of any of this in the estimates, the department plans, the results. I don't see any discussion around this anywhere. I'm just curious to know what the government is doing to ensure this project gets built so that these first nations can receive the benefits they rightly deserve from this project.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Violence of any nature is unacceptable in a society such as ours. At the same time we have to recognize that while this is an entirely provincially regulated authorization process that has gone through all the mechanisms, there is a resistance to this project by several indigenous groups. Those who have chosen to invest in CGL, that is absolutely their right, and indeed, on completion they most likely stand to benefit from it.

The question, I think, is this: What is the role of the federal government when people are not of the same mind, excluding, obviously, people who would choose violence as a solution to their frustrations? That is an important one. I don't think we could come up with a cost estimate that would truly value the role that the federal government can play working with the provincial government, in this case, Minister Rankin in B.C., in trying to achieve a peaceful solution to a very highly contentious situation that starts not only in resource extraction, but controversy over the issue of indigenous title and Wet'suwet'en hereditary title that was embodied in Supreme Court cases a quarter of a century ago.

I'm not suggesting, by any stretch of the imagination, that hereditary leadership in this case sanctions any of the unacceptable activities we've seen, but we have to, at the same time, acknowledge that there is tension within the Wet'suwet'en people's leadership—many of them—as to whether this pipeline has had the social acceptability it has had. It is a difficult situation but I think—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Sorry, Minister, I don't mean to cut you off, but I—

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I'll just conclude in saying that the federal government stands ready to help in any situation to try to bring this to a peaceful solution. Trying to take sides isn't helpful, but trying to resolve this in a peaceful way is.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I want to go down a bit of a similar line.

In 2018 your government purchased the Trans Mountain pipeline. It was indicated at the time that you would not be a long-term owner.

Following the purchase, Finance Canada began consulting with first nations leaders about the possible indigenous ownership and since then it's been pretty quiet, I must say. We've seen some emails recently through access to information requests commenting on the “what we heard” report that was published by the government back in 2019, showing communications staff actually talking about keeping it quiet. That's a little bit discouraging, to be honest with you.

I want to get right to the crux so you have time to answer the question.

Can you tell me what the plan is in the context of selling TMX to the interested indigenous...? There were a couple of different groups interested in buying this pipeline. Where are we at in that journey with those groups?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

As the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, I don't have a direct role in any sort of brokering of this process. I do have the same information as to the interest of several indigenous groups that have expressed the desire to get an equity portion in it. I don't think, short of that.... I would obviously just direct you to the Minister of Natural Resources in that case for those types of questions. I have no particular point of view as to their role in this, and just support any indigenous peoples who I have the honour to represent and their points of view.

Thank you.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

All right, thank you.

I know we're not supposed to be talking about supplementary estimates (B) from 2021-22 today, but I want to jump back because we didn't have the opportunity to talk about those and I want to ask you a quick question.

There was $212.2 million to compensate 13,500 individuals. It was the day-school survivor settlement and you and I have talked about this in the past.

In the supplementary estimates (B) details it talks about this funding also being used for legal fees, third party administration costs and ongoing management of indigenous childhood claims litigation. I'm just wondering if you could provide to me the breakdown of how much of that $212 million is for the legal fees and the administrative costs and all of that. If you or your people don't have it, could you provide that to us in writing at some point?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Yes, we will provide that to you in writing. I don't have that today.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

I have 30 seconds and I'm going to ask you a couple of really quick hitters here if I can.

I had the opportunity to meet with a number of your department officials a while ago and they gave me a briefing. That was fantastic and I appreciate that.

In that discussion, and along with some other information that we've been able to talk about after that, I learned there are some really long time frames on the settlement of the ATRs and the specific land claims. The time frames are actually almost unfathomable at times. I'm curious what you think is an appropriate standard and if there are some specific measures you could talk about that your department is working on to shorten those claim periods and settlements.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Yes, they are complex. The timelines are unacceptable at times, even in the simpler cases. The approach I've tried to take as a minister is “as quickly as possible”, with the frustrating realization that it can't come to fruition in a lot of cases.

In the ATR process there are some third party interests that we need to clear and satisfy before that process is complete.

The process of ATR is complicated even further by the fact that it falls within Minister Hajdu's and my authority jointly, but at the end of the day the conclusion is that it has been too slow and it needs to go more quickly, and we need to be a little more innovative as to how we add land back to reserves. It's very frustrating for communities, even if it's a couple of acres in some cases, but even in the simplest of cases it should be much faster.

There are more monies allocated internally—a few million dollars—to hasten that, but as we exit from COVID and as people actually go back to work and the in-person paper documentation that was essential to getting this done faster can be done a little more effectively, I hope to see that go more quickly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Vidal.

Mr. Weiler, you have six minutes.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ministers Miller and Vandal, and officials for joining our committee for estimates today.

My first question, through you, Mr. Chair, is for Minister Miller.

The main estimates for the upcoming fiscal year include $1.2 billion in funding to implement comprehensive land claims, self-government agreements and other agreements to address section 35 rights.

How does this funding relate to your commitment to give land back, which you stated when you were first appointed as a Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

In part, Patrick, it ties directly into that comment.

I think the comment I made is one that is important for someone in my position and in the positions that we all hold to realize: the reality of our history, which is that our relationship is based in land and has been broken by, at times, the theft of land and the dispossession of land through other means, and the injustice that created. In the corresponding legal remedies that are being exercised today in court, more often than not the facts are not in Canada's favour, and that has resulted in very large monetary compensations.

The amounts you see in the estimates are ones that are coming to fruition. Out of respect for the communities in question, one of which is in Alberta, there are a few very large ones on the horizon, thanks to the engagement of the community foremost in getting it done. Often, there are situations where land cannot be restored because there are people on it, and despite what you've often heard about things, there is a desire by indigenous communities and non-indigenous communities to get along, and there are some very good partnerships. No one is asking anyone to go anywhere. People are just asking to get along and to achieve justice. That includes restoration of land and, where that is not possible, monetary funds to the extent that it can substitute for that adequately.

As I look to my department for more innovative solutions, including direct negotiations with provinces for better access to lands on a treaty land entitlement basis, mostly in the prairies, this is work that needs to continue, but to the extent that we can't replace with land or where that's not desirable, it's compensation, as I mentioned in my introductory comments, through monetary reparations and restorative justice.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

Continuing on this line, many first nations across B.C. have completely given up on the modern treaty process just because of the astronomical cost in legal fees and the many decades that it has been taking to come to resolutions. Ironically, it has actually made pathways through the court much more attractive. At the same time, we've seen the provincial government in B.C. move relatively swiftly to conclude comprehensive foundation agreements with several first nations, including one in my riding.

The departmental plan says that it will “accelerate the renewal of the relationship with Indigenous peoples” by increasing “the number of treaties, self-government agreements and other constructive arrangements using an approach based on [the] affirmation of rights and by reform [of] policies to ensure they align with partner expectations”.

There is a combined almost $450 million in these estimates in support of treaty negotiations both past and present, so I was hoping that you could explain to this committee at this point if the ministry is faced with a lack of resources for these negotiations and/or what the ministry plans to do to speed up some of the relatively glacial pace of the self-government negotiations and other constructive arrangements with first nations.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

It's an excellent question. I think it calls into question some of the principles we've stated quite clearly as a government about renewing our relationship and working on a nation-to-nation basis, going at the pace of the communities, and the sort of square approach that we have at times been accused—rightly so—of taking with respect to communities that want a little rounder solution.

Ironically even more so to your comments, Patrick, where we've had successes more often than not has been in the west, with a few notable exceptions where I come from. The pace is slow. I don't think we can deny that. There is a multi-governmental approach that needs to be taken when we talk about fisheries or defence or natural resources and provincial government involvement. These are all elements that do slow down the pace, but clearly the resources that we've allocated in the last five years have been significant. We have hundreds of negotiation tables of various natures, whether they're sectoral or not.

The modern treaty process is a slow process, but I think we have to realize as a country that what we have as a set of tools needs to be expanded for communities that just refuse, as a starter, to get into those discussions. It forces those communities into the devil they know, which is the Indian Act, and that is an absolutely unacceptable proposition to hear in this day and age.

Internally, in reflecting on it, we have to get smarter about what we're doing. There are some great.... I think about the Sechelt thing in your riding, Patrick, and there is some good news on the horizon there, hopefully. Obviously, the pace isn't at the pace that we would hold ourselves to and, indeed, that the communities and nations expect us to move at. You get into numbered treaty areas in the prairies, and you get into peace and friendship treaties in my neck of the woods and the relationship gets much more complex.

There's a lot of work to do, and it's stuff that we have to be open-eyed about, but clearly, the resources that we are now deploying, particularly in coming off two years of pandemic, are such that we feel we can make some significant progress. I think people are expecting more results, quicker, and I don't object to that point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Minister Miller.

Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank both Minister Miller and Minister Vandal for their appearance today, as well as all the teams participating via telepresence.

First of all, I have a question on supplementary estimates (C). In the line entitled "Contributions for the purpose of consultation and policy development", the amount in the forecast column is usually very large, and then a sum is added as a supplement. In this case, it starts at $12 million and then $95 million is added, for a total of $108 million.

What explains this very obvious change in the supplementary estimates?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

To give you a more complete answer, I'll turn it over to the department officials who are online.

[Daniel Quan-Watson, Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm looking for the line and the number in question, and I'm hoping that the Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer, Ms. Bess, can help me.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Is it my turn, Mr. Chair? If not, I can ask another question while waiting for the witnesses' answer.

I would like to move on to a completely different subject, that of residential schools.

Of course, the issue concerns us all. All first nations know that research is underway, given the release of some archival documents, but time is running out.

Minister Miller, I remember hearing you say last December that you wanted to see a new structure, perhaps an interdepartmental committee, put in place to deal with the release of archival documents.

I would like to know how this desire is reflected in the estimates.

What has been done since December 2021?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

That's an excellent question.

There has been a lot of unease about the disclosure of information related to residential schools.

There are several categories of information, and I don't have enough time to talk about them in detail, but they are important distinctions. It is clear that Canada has not fully lived up to its moral duty to residential school survivors and their families in terms of disclosure.

Upon taking office and following the Prime Minister's directive, I conducted a review with my team to determine which documents, including those that were subject to confidentiality obligations by several religious institutions and related to certain residential schools in western Canada, should be released.

I also asked that our relationship with the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation in Winnipeg be renewed to give indigenous people not only a better channel of communication, but also documents that in some cases were tainted. We are talking about thousands and thousands of documents. Secondly, it's not all the research and the breakdown that needs to be done within the government—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I don't want to interrupt you, but I had to do the same thing with Ms. Hajdu, because there are so many things—