Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 25th, 2022

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

We'll start with Mr. Shields. You have five minutes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you. I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Vidal.

Mr. Miller, you're very familiar with Siksika Nation. They have a very long single road bridge over the Bow River, which is dangerous and an impediment to economic development.

Chief Ouray Crowfoot is working with the surrounding municipalities. They're working with the province but, as you know, this kind of build would take financial money from infrastructure.

If I bring that information to the Minister of Infrastructure federally, would you support that with influence at the table for that project?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I have a pretty decent relationship with Chief Crowfoot. I have actually yet to talk to him specifically about that issue. Should he advocate that I do so, I'd gladly do so and advocate to the Minister of Infrastructure for that investment.

These projects, depending, have to be advanced by the province, and if they have an indigenous component there's actually a ratcheting up of the federal involvement, as you know, and sometimes they come from other sources, but I have no problem with advocating.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

This project is large enough that it will come to the federal side, for infrastructure.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I understand that, when it gets large, it gets federal, yes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Right. I appreciate your support, and I will bring you that information as well.

I will turn my time over to Mr. Vidal.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

Minister Miller, the PBO, in his report on the fall economic update, had some pretty scathing statements to make about the timeliness and lack of transparency on the release of the public accounts and the annual financial report. It is my understanding that the reopening and some of the stuff that happened around that from.... I'm sorry; I'm trying not to get into too much accounting lingo here on you. That happened around the $40-billion settlement that was going on at the time, and that's what triggered a lot of this, so I get the connection.

Can you tell the committee what it was about the agreements and the timing that forced you to, in an unprecedented way, reopen public accounts that were already signed off on? They were done; they were finished. They eventually got tabled later than they had since 1994, and, as I said, they had to be reopened.

Ultimately, just about $10 billion got backdated into the accounts for 2021, and the PBO makes it very clear that this was a government decision. In his report, he said, “...the Government's decision to amend the initial Public Accounts....”

As somebody who sits at the cabinet table, can you tell us how that played out and what forced you to have to do that?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I never had any discussion of the sort, so I'd have to defer to whoever took that decision. I don't know.

Are you suggesting that the PBO said that it had to do with the agreements in principle that were completed on December 31?

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Yes, it did. If you follow through the notes to the financial statements and the subsequent notes, it was directly connected to that—

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I'll confess to the committee that I haven't read it, but—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

In essence, what it looks like, Minister, and that's the frustration.... It looks like, in essence, what happened is that these accounts got opened so that we could take $10 billion of the $40 billion and put it back in last year when there was already a $327-billion deficit and not have to account for it going forward. That's the appearance of it.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Yes, I know.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

It might be legal, but sometimes we're putting our toes on the edge of.... It doesn't seem transparent in my mind. I guess that's my concern.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

When we look at indigenous liability and we look to account fairly, there are many large items that I would like to track back fiscally to the 1800s, and, in this case, track them back to 1990. We're talking about $40 billion, $20 billion in making sure we don't continue the discrimination that has heretofore occurred and $20 billion to settle a liability that's gone, in various areas, back to the 1990s, so if I could attribute it to a prior governments, I would love to do it. I know that is not a proper accounting mechanism, but it's probably a fair one to do if you look at it from—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Minister, I'm not talking about the amounts; I'm talking about the process.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I wouldn't know. I wasn't involved—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

It was an unprecedented process.

I have one quick follow-up question, because I am going to run out of time, I'm sure, pretty quickly here, Mr. Chair.

Minister, you talked about the whole $40 billion child welfare settlement. It was in two pieces, two $20-billion pieces. You and I have had this conversation. In essence, what's happened, if I understand it correctly, is that the departments have tasked the AFN with going out and collecting the data to try to get these agreements in principle to a finalized point by March 31, 2022. That's what the aim was. I'm hearing some concerns that first nations that are not part of the AFN are upset about the process because they feel like they're being excluded.

The minister earlier in the first session talked about fairly and collaboratively working toward this.

Are you hearing that same concern, or is that just something I'm hearing through other sources? I'm just curious if you're hearing that same issue and how you're addressing it, if you are.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Ultimately, it won't be me who addresses it; it will be the court.

We're talking about two separate items. One is historical compensation, which is largely driven through, while imperfect, a well-acknowledged process to redress agreements that are in class action, but when we're talking about long-term reform—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

My point, Minister, is about the process and engaging first nations. You set out to engage first nations to come to an agreement by March 31. I'm not arguing about the components; I'm talking about the process. Has there been concern about the process from non-AFN member first nations?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I think you'll always find concern with the process, and you will find concern with the process from people who don't consider AFN to speak for them.

When it comes to children and their families, it can be a very sensitive issue. You compound that by the fact that you're talking about historical amounts that, yes, while they're an attempt to take away the discrimination that's occurred...we're talking about large amounts that will impact communities and impact individuals. I'm confident that the process is equitable, but certainly those concerns are there.

I have a lot of faith in the advocacy of Dr. Blackstock. She has not been afraid to speak up for children, regardless of who that impacts, any level of leadership, foremost the federal government, but it is a concern, obviously, and I'm sure it's a concern for AFN.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Vidal.

Mr. McLeod, you have five minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both ministers for presenting today. There's a lot of interesting discussion happening.

I want to make, first, a comment to Minister Vandal about nutrition north.

In the Northwest Territories I think we have 10 communities on the nutrition north program. We don't want to be on that program, but in order for us to get off the nutrition north program we need a solution. The solution is in the government's hands, because in the Northwest Territories the federal government is still responsible for building new roads. So, if you took the opportunity and found the investment to build roads to these communities, we wouldn't need the growing subsidy.

When I got involved in the government many years ago the program was only about $20 million. We're well over $100 million a year now. That's a suggestion, and I keep reminding you of it.

Minister Miller, I belong to the Dehcho First Nations, and I started attending meetings when I was 17 years old. I was talking about recreation facilities and sports programs. The elders were talking about land claims. I'm now 62 years old, and we're still talking about land claims and self-government for the people of my tribal council. Things were not moving very fast, and in 2014 it got even worse because the Conservative government cut funding to band councils, to core funding, to tribal councils and they also cut the resources to the department.

Just before COVID hit I talked to a small community that's negotiating in the Northwest Territories—Colville Lake. We have 14 tables going on in the Northwest Territories. The chief said that in the Northwest Territories when negotiators come, they leave Ottawa Monday morning and fly all day to get to Yellowknife. After 12 hours they stay overnight in Yellowknife. The next day they catch the commercial flight to Norman Wells, and they stay there for another night. Wednesday morning they charter a plane into Colville Lake, get settled into their rooms, and we start negotiations on Wednesday afternoon. We do introductions and set the agenda. Thursday morning we start negotiating, and at noon we start packing up so that the negotiators can head back to Ottawa. They fly to Yellowknife Thursday night and Friday they head all the way back to Ottawa. A half of a day once a month, and it's not improving.

At this rate we're not going to settle any land claims. I've been here six and a half years and we haven't signed one land claim in the Northwest Territories. It's not the indigenous government's fault; it's the federal government's fault. They don't have the investment and resources to do a good job. There are negotiators with more files than they can handle.

Can you suggest a solution? Is there a strategy that you're working on to try to improve the ability for the federal government to take part in the negotiations to speed them up? At this rate—I'm 62 now—I'm not going to see an AIP in my lifetime in the part of the country that I live in.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

It's probably cold comfort for you to hear that we can reproduce that same negotiation strategy, and only travel half an hour. I understand that you're trying to exemplify the immense costs and resources that you deploy in actually getting people from A to B in the Far North, and the impacts. It would appear to be disrespectful to just sit there for a half hour, a half day, and it's an in-and-out strategy.

I don't like making this a partisan thing. It doesn't make me blind to the cuts that occurred in the past, but when we talk about reconciliation, there's still a segment of our society that wants it, but thinks it has to be done for free. When people look at the amounts we're investing into things—whether we're talking about just over $1 billion in loans that had to be forgiven or were removed from the books for indigenous communities that had to fight in court for their legitimate claims—we've been able to move that stuff to clear the playing field, so we're starting on an equal basis.

I know it's frustrating to hear that these things are slow, and nothing's going to happen. I still have hope. I would have to fire myself if I said I didn't have hope. The reality is that we spend a lot of time co-developing fiscal policies that will make a huge difference in levelling the playing field, allowing communities to lift themselves up in the spirit of self-determination. There are many tools that are allowing us to work with communities, supporting them in their self-governance efforts as they work toward a nation to nation basis, which has to be an equal to equal basis.

We know the conditions on which we imposed indigenous communities to sign treaties, for example, to sign agreements in the past. That's why we call the ones that we feel are more progressive “modern treaties”, because they're more egalitarian and fair in nature. There's work to do with them as well.

The pace of things is well registered within this government. We've been around for six years, with 19 self-government agreements, and there are more to come.

Land is a proposition. You would say that in the Far North, where there's so much of it, it should be a no-brainer. It still gets complicated, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Minister, your answer is important, but we do have to wrap up.