Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 25th, 2022

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I was just beginning and I remember the question.

It was about the unacceptable situation faced by indigenous peoples in Quebec.

It's true that there is a shortage of housing everywhere in this country. I do want to point out that MP Stubbs called it a “humanitarian” crisis the other day, and she's absolutely right. She's speaking about northern housing, but it's true all across this country.

In fact, our national housing strategy now has affirmed the right to housing as a Canadian right, so it's something that's very important to me personally.

In terms of investments overall, in budgets 2017 and 2018, we committed over $1.7 billion in housing for distinctions-based housing strategies. In Quebec, since April 2016 there's been $88 million invested. There are 248 completed projects, with 29 still ongoing. That's about 40 communities and about 56—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Sorry to cut you off, but my time is limited.

You referred to 2017 and 2018, but my question was about the present and the proportion of funding being allocated now. There's a funding shortfall, and more housing has to be built if needs are to be met adequately in the future. I want to know how much of the funding is being allocated.

If you can't give me the figures, tell me what exactly first nations need in order for the housing shortage to be resolved by 2030. Could you also give me the current percentage of investment? That will tell me how much still needs to be invested to reach the 2030 target.

Thank you.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much.

I think we're all waiting with bated breath for the budget, and certainly we know that as a government we must be more ambitious in our expenditures on affordable housing, in particular for first nations, Inuit and Métis people, but certainly there's a lack of affordable housing across the country.

I know that this is top of mind for the Prime Minister and the finance minister, and I'll be working with my colleagues across portfolios, including Minister Hussen, to accelerate our work and to make—I think importantly—our processes as facile as possible for indigenous people to be able to determine for themselves how they will build that housing, what it will look like and how they will meet the needs of their growing communities.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Yes, you have a minute left.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Minister, how much funding has your department earmarked to address the fact that the needs of the different first nations vary? As you know, the conditions for building housing differ from community to community, whether it's transportation, the cost of materials or the shortage of workers—or complete lack thereof.

Does the department adjust for those factors? That is something first nations have been asking for, and it may be the main reason why it's so difficult to build housing, other than a lack of funding.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

You're absolutely right. Trying to get to what the size of the gap is and what the investments need to be in order to reduce that gap by 2030 is a key focus and priority for me and for Deputy Fox. We work closely with the IFSD, which does a lot of that modelling work that you're talking about in terms of assessing the size of the gap, not just in housing but in other infrastructure and socio-economic needs.

We know it's significant. The AFN has estimated it at $60 billion. I'll turn to Deputy Fox to give some reflections on the work of the department.

[Christiane Fox]

The only thing I would like to add is that when we apply for funding, we also have to take into account the distance in the north. The COVID-19 pandemic has also had an impact on the cost of labour and materials. We are trying to factor these considerable costs into our forecasts.

We take into account that what applies to an urban community must be adapted to the context of much more remote communities, that is, communities in the north.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᐃᒃᓯᕙᐅᑖᖅ. ᓯᕗᓪᓕᕐᒥᑦ ᑐᙵᓱᒋᔅᓯ ᑕᒡᕙᓂ ᐅᓂᑉᑳᕋᔅᓯ. ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᑖᓐᓇ ᒪᓕᒐᓕᐅᖅᑎᕐᔪᐊᖅ ᒋᐅᓪ ᖁᔭᓕᕙᕋ ᐃᒡᓗᓕᕆᓂᐅᑉ ᒥᒃᓵᓄᑦ ᐊᐱᖅᓱᐊᓂᖅᖃᐅᖕᒪᑦ, ᐊᐱᕆᓂᐊᖅᖃᐅᔭᒃᑲ ᐊᐱᕆᐊᓂᖕᒪᒋᑦ. ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᑎᑦᑎᔪᒪᑐᐃᓐᓇᖅᐳᖓ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐃᒡᓗᓕᕆᓂᖅ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᓄᑦ ᐊᒃᓱᐊᓗᒃ ᐱᒻᒪᕆᐅᒋᔭᐅᖃᑕᐅᖕᒪᑦ ᓇᓗᓇᐃᖅᑕᐅᖁᔨᕗᖓ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐊᐱᕆᓂᐊᓚᐅᖅᑕᕋᓗᐊᒃᑲ ᐊᐱᕆᔾᔮᕈᓐᓃᑳᓪᓚᒃᑲᒃᑭᑦ. ᐱᕕᒃᑭᑦᑑᓂᕐᓂᑦ ᐅᑯᓂᙵᑦ ᐊᓯᖔᖏᓐᓂᒃ ᐊᐱᕆᓂᐊᓕᕋᒪ, ᓲᕐᓗ ᑕᐃᒪᙵᓂᑦ ᒪᓕᒐᓕᐅᕐᕕᒡᔪᐊᕐᒥᑦ ᑲᑎᒪᖃᑕᐅᖃᑦᑕᓕᖅᑎᓪᓗᖓ, ᐃᓐᓇᐃᑦ ᒥᒃᓵᓄᑦ ᐊᐱᖅᓱᖃᑦᑕᐃᓐᓇᖅᓯᒪᒐᒪ, ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᑎᒍᑦ ᐃᓐᓇᖁᑎᒃᐳᑦ ᐊᒃᓱᐊᓗᒃ ᐊᓐᓂᕆᒐᑦᑎᒍ, ᐊᒃᓱᕉᑎᒋᕙᒃᖢᑎᒍᑦ, ᐊᐃᑦᑖᖑᖃᑦᑕᕐᒪᑦ ᐱᓗᐊᖅᑐᒥᑦ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥᐅᑦ ᐃᓐᓇᖏᑦ ᐊᒃᓱᕈᕐᓇᖅᑐᒃᑰᖃᑦᑕᖅᓯᒫᓂᒃᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᖕᒧᑦ ᐊᐅᓪᓚᖅᑎᑦᑎᓯᒪᔪᑦ ᕿᑐᙵᖏᓐᓂᑦ, ᓄᓇᓕᖕᓅᖅᑎᑕᐅᓯᒪᔪᑦ, ᕿᖕᒦᔭᖅᑕᐅᓯᒪᔪᑦ, ᐊᒥᓱᓄᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᔾᔭᐅᖃᑦᑕᕋᒪ ᓱᓕ ᓄᓇᓕᖕᓂᑦ ᐃᓐᓇᖁᑏᑦ ᐊᐅᓪᓚᖅᑎᑕᐅᔪᒪᙱᑦᑐᑦ, ᖃᓄᖅ ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᓕᖅᐸᒋᑦ, ᓲᕐᓗᖃᐃ ᓄᓇᕗᑦ ᒐᕙᒪᒃᑯᑦ ᐱᓕᕆᖃᑎᒋᓂᐊᖅᐱᒋᑦ ᐃᓐᓇᐃᑦ ᓄᓇᒥᖕᓂᑦ ᐃᓐᓇᐅᖏᓐᓇᖁᓪᓗᒋᑦ? ᑖᓐᓇ ᓯᕗᓪᓕᕆᓂᐊᖅᐸᕋ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

Firstly, welcome to this meeting and for your presentation.

I'd like to thank you, Ms. Gill. You talked about housing, which is very important, and you raised some of the questions I had. When it comes to housing with aboriginal people, it is one of the crises that we have at the moment. I will not raise any questions, as they have been covered by colleagues before me.

I will ask this question, though.

Ever since I joined Parliament here, I have raised questions about elders and elder care. We value our elders very much, and it hurts us to see Nunavummiut elders go through such hardship in their lifetimes: going through residential school, giving up their children to residential schools and being forced into settlement communities where their dogs were destroyed.

Many people in the communities tell me that the elders do not want to leave their homeland to get care. Will you work with the Nunavut government on elder care and keep the elders in their own homeland when it comes to personal and permanent care?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, MP Idlout.

I appreciate your passion for keeping families intact and elders at home.

It's not just in Nunavut that I hear this concern. I hear this concern across the country. I even hear this concern from remote and rural communities that are sometimes four hours away from an urban centre and non-indigenous communities where elders are isolated from families. It's tragic because of course we know that connection to family, to culture and to language is part of the quality of life that I think we all deserve in our last years.

We are working closely with the Government of Nunavut, which has the jurisdiction over health care, including long-term and continued care. We are looking at ways we can create a strategy together to help build the capacity to have people cared for closer to home, whether that's better at-home care—I think everybody would say they'd prefer to be at home as long as they can—or supportive living closer to community.

We have to do better for our elders. Hopefully one of the eye-openers for all of us during this pandemic has been just how much our elders, regardless of where they live in this country, struggle when they're isolated and away from family.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ. ᐊᓯᐊᓄᑦ ᓅᓐᓂᐊᓕᕐᒥᒐᒪ. ᑖᓐᓇ ᐊᕕᒃᑐᖁᑎᒋᓯᒪᔭᔅᓯ ᑎᑎᕋᓚᐅᕋᔅᓯ ᐊᑐᓕᖅᑎᑦᑎᓂᐊᕋᔅᓯᒎᖅ ᓲᕐᓗ ᐃᓱᒪᓕᕆᓂᖅ Mental Wellness-ᖑᓂᕋᖅᑕᐅᔪᒥᑦ, ᐊᒃᑐᐊᓂᖃᕐᓂᐊᕋᔅᓯᒎᖅ ᐱᖓᓱᓂᑦ ᐊᕐᕌᒍᓂᑦ ᓴᓂᕐᕙᐃᓗᓯᒎᖅ $597 ᒥᓕᔭᓐ. ᑖᓐᓇ ᓇᓗᓇᐃᕆᔪᖕᓇᖅᐱᓯᐅᒃ ᓴᓂᕐᕙᐃᓯᒪᔪᖅ ᖃᓄᑎᒋ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᓄᑦ ᑐᕌᖓᓂᐊᕐᒪᖔᑦᑕ, ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᐃᑲᔫᑎᖏᓐᓄᑦ ᖃᓄᑎᒋ ᑐᕌᖓᓂᐊᖅᐸ ᑖᒃᑯᓄᙵ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

I will go to another topic.

You wrote that you would get into work on mental wellness. You will work for three years and set aside $500 million for the next three years.

Of the money you have set aside, how much of that is slated towards aboriginal people? How much will it benefit aboriginal employees and caregivers?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The entire amount is slated for indigenous people. There are additional monies for non-indigenous mental health and wellness strategies.

This is an exciting time, because the work that we've been doing in partnership with community has really been through the self-determination lens. I look at programs like Choose Life, which is in my neck of the woods in northern Ontario. Indigenous communities—small communities and larger tribal council areas—were able to develop programming for young people to prevent suicide and to increase mental wellness in communities. So many people have spoken so highly about this because it's designed by indigenous people for indigenous people.

That's the intent behind mental health and wellness strategies that I will be working on with my colleague, Minister Bennett, as mandated by the Prime Minister. It is in my mandate to do this and I think it has to be through the eyes and lens of indigenous people.

As you know, MP Idlout, indigenous people are different all across the country. Many Canadians don't know that as clearly as others. I certainly think there are astounding programs and work being done, like back-to-the-land programs and culture and language programs.

We often think about mental health as treatment oriented. If you have a problem, you go to a counsellor. That's a very western idea of thinking about how to manage mental health.

It's exciting to see these models growing across the country.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᑕᒪᓐᓇ ᑐᑭᓯᑦᑎᐊᕋᕕᐅᒃ, ᐊᒃᓱᐊᓗ ᖁᔭᓕᕗᖓ. ᑮᓇᐅᔭᕐᓂᒃ ᓇᓗᓇᐃᕆᔪᖕᓇᖅᐲᑦ? ᖃᔅᓯᓪᓚᑦᑖᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᓄᑦ ᑐᕌᖓᔪᐃᑦ, ᓲᕐᓗᑦᑕᐅᖅ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥᐅᑦ ᐅᑕᖅᕿᓯᒪᐃᓐᓇᕐᒪᑕ ᐊᑯᓂ ᐃᒡᓗᖁᑎᒥᒃ ᓴᖅᕿᑦᑐᖃᕐᓂᐊᕐᓂᕋᖅᑕᐅᔪᒥᒃ ᒪᒥᓴᕐᕕᐅᓇᔭᖅᑐᒥᒃ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you for clarifying that.

Can you give us an estimate of exactly how much is targeted to which aboriginal people? Nunavummiut have been waiting for years for a treatment centre.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Again, and I'm glad that the Minister for Northern Affairs will be here to speak with you because, of course, the Province of Nunavut is responsible for health care and building those health care facilities. We will work with Nunavut to look at how we can support those kinds of things, like treatment centres.

I'll say what I say about treatment centres to everyone, though.

I come from a family that's experienced substance use problems throughout many generations. Treatment centres are only as good as the desire of the person to go to them. We have to be thinking more broadly than treatment centres.

Of course, we need better access to treatment when people need it, but we also need the kinds of things that make people successful after they leave the treatment centre, which help solidify those gains they make and that recovery they experience while in treatment. If people go back to the exact same conditions and the exact same circumstances, relapses are all too often the result. It's heartbreaking for the person and it's heartbreaking for the family.

As much as everybody talks about treatment centres, I'm very excited about the prevention piece of our wellness and mental health strategy, so we can prevent people from needing that kind of intensive treatment in the first place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

We'll go to the second round now.

First is Mr. Vidal. You have five minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I think it's Shannon's turn.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

I'm going to ask a question, and then I'll go back to Jamie Schmale.

Minister, thanks for being here.

Thanks to your officials for joining you today.

I'm sure you know that Métis settlements in Alberta are unique in Canada. They are a land base, they pay taxes and they have elected councils. There are eight of them in total, and four of them are in Lakeland. We're all well aware that the 2016 Daniels decision confirmed that Métis people are a federal responsibility.

A 2018 infrastructure report highlighted the massive gap that exists between Métis settlements and the rest of rural Alberta, especially on infrastructure. They estimate that about 24% of roads, or 216 kilometres, are in very poor condition. The average cost to build a road in Alberta varies, but it's anywhere between $500,000 to $1 million a kilometre. For context, for the entire immediate infrastructure needs of Métis settlements, in which the government also included housing, you promised $40 million over four years. That would be $1.25 million or 2.5 kilometres per community per year, and that's only if it's used for roads and not housing or water treatment lagoons, plants or any other facilities.

I am a fiscal Conservative. I believe in governments putting needs before wants and making careful spending choices, exactly so core needs like infrastructure and housing can be met.

I wonder how much has been given to the Buffalo Lake, East Prairie, Elizabeth, Fishing Lake, Gift Lake, Kikino, Paddle Prairie and Peavine Métis settlements in Alberta.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you for the question, and thank you for the passion behind it.

I hope you speak to your Albertan colleagues about the importance of creating infrastructure like roads, as well. As I said in my answer to MP Powlowski, provincial roads are the responsibility of the province; nonetheless, they can prioritize them and get support from the federal government through the infrastructure projects. It is important that we consider connecting those remote communities, because they oftentimes have a better ability to participate in the economy and to drive their own local economies.

In terms of funding for housing in Métis settlements, I would encourage you to ask that question of Minister Miller. My department focuses only on infrastructure spending in first nations reserves.

The last thing I'll say is when we're talking about Métis people having been determined to have rights under section 35 as indigenous people, through a number of different court decisions, in my mind, it's important not to say that the federal government is responsible for them. I'll tell you why. All too often, I see the football of who's responsible for indigenous people, and I will say that we're all collectively responsible to honour the treaties and the agreements—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I'm a person of Ojibwa descent. I appreciate your comment.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I certainly don't doubt anyone's sincerity on this file. I wanted to alert you that those Métis settlements in Alberta have not received a dime and they're about to miss the second construction season on the $40-million commitment for infrastructure and housing.

Thanks, Minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll make sure to connect with my colleague Minister Miller about that and infrastructure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Mr. Schmale, you have about a minute and a half.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Minister, I want to continue on a path similar to Mrs. Stubbs'. You mentioned in your opening remarks the increased funding that your department is looking at, specifically in regard to $22 billion for out-of-court settlements. Maybe you could update this committee on the comments we've heard from some indigenous leaders who've been waiting for about six years or more for compensation.

Where is your department in issuing the $40,000 compensation payments? How far along are you and your department in implementing the new system that will protect indigenous children?