Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᐃᒃᓯᕙᐅᑕᓕᒃ. ᓇᐃᓈᓗᐊᕐᒪᑦ ᐊᐱᖅᑯᑎᒋᔪᓐᓇᖅᑕᒃᑲ ᐊᐱᕆᑲᐅᑎᒋᓂᐊᖅᐳᖓ. ᒐᕙᒪᐅᑉ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᕆᔭᒻᒥᓂᒃ ᖃᐅᔨᓴᖅᑎᕐᔪᐊᖅ ᐅᖃᖅᓯᒪᒻᒪᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊᒎᖅ ᐃᕐᓂᐅᖅᑎᑦᑎᓇᓱᐊᕐᓂᕐᒧᑦ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᐃᑦ ᐊᒥᓱᓐᖑᖅᐹᓪᓕᖅᑑᒐᓗᐊᑦ ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᐅᖃᓕᒫᕐᓂᐊᕋᒪ ᑎᑎᕋᖅᓯᒪᔭᖓᓐᓂ ᐃᒪᓐᓇ ᐅᖃᖅᓯᒪᔪᖅ ᓇᓂᓯᔪᐃᑦ 2023−ᒥᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊᒎᖅ 80%−ᒪᕆᐊᓗᐃᑦ ᓱᓕ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑕᐅᖏᑦᑐᑦ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐅᖃᖅᓯᒪᔭᖓ ᐃᒪᓐᓇ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᓕᖅᑐᒍᑦ ᐊᒥᓱᒻᒪᕆᐊᓗᓐᓂᑦ ᐊᕐᕌᒍᓂᑦ, ᖁᓖᑦ ᐅᖓᑖᒍᑦ ᖃᔅᓯᑲᓪᓚᒡᓂᒃ ᑕᒪᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᒡᓗᓕᕆᓂᕐᒧᑦ ᐊᒥᓱᓐᖑᒃᑲᓐᓂᕆᐊᓖᑦ ᐃᕐᓂᐅᖅᑎᑦᑎᓇᓱᓐᓂᕐᒧᑦ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᓂᒃ. ᐃᒪᓐᓇ ᐊᐱᕆᕗᖓ ᐃᒡᓗᓕᕆᔨᕐᔪᐊᒃᑯᓐᓄᑦ ᑕᒪᒃᑯᐊ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᑎᒡᓗᓯᐅᒃ ᖃᓄᐃᒻᒪᑦ 2001 ᓈᓴᐅᑎᓂᒃ ᐊᑐᓚᐅᖅᐱᓯ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᐃᑦ ᐊᑐᖁᔭᐅᓂᖏᓐᓄᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᓄᖓ ᐊᑐᖅᑕᐅᓂᐊᖅᑐᓂᒃ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Chair.

I will ask this very briefly. The Auditor General states that there was an increase in investments but they wrote that they “found that in 2023 80% of needs were still not [being] met”. We've known for decades now and over decades again I say that housing needs have been underinvested.

My question is for CMHC.

Knowing this, why did you choose to use 2001 data to make your allocations?

[English]

[Nadine Leblanc, Interim Chief Financial Officer and Senior Vice-President, Policy, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation]

The allocation was co-developed with the first nations during that time, near 2001, and considered many factors, including Stats Canada's census, but it also included suitability, overcrowding and specific regional needs.

As presented by the Auditor General, CMHC is committed to review this allocation and to work with first nations to co-develop the new formula, which will include the new census data, as well as other factors that first nations deem important in prioritizing their housing needs. That will be a priority of CMHC.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᑕᐃᒪᓐᖓᓂ 2001 ᖃᖓᔭᑐᖄᓘᑎᓪᓗᒍ ᑕᒪᒃᑯᐊ ᐊᑐᖅᑕᐅᒋᐊᖃᕐᒪᕆᑦᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᖃᓄᐃᒻᒪᑦ ᓄᑖᕈᕆᐊᒃᑲᓐᓂᖏᓚᓯᐅᒃ ᐊᒃᓱᒡᓘᓐᓃᑦ 2021−ᒧᑦ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Since 2001, that's quite a while ago. Why is it that you have not updated the stats and the information to more current dates?

[English]

[Nadine Leblanc]

We work with first nations across the country to understand the needs of first nations across regional and—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᒪᒥᐊᓇᖅ ᓄᖅᑲᑦᑎᓐᓂᐊᕋᒃᑭᑦ ᑭᐅᔾᔮᖏᑦᑐᑎᑦ ᓇᓗᓇᓐᖏᒻᒪᑦ. ᐊᓯᐊᓄᑦ ᓅᓐᓂᐊᕋᒪ. ᐹᓂ ᕼᐃᑐᒧᑦ ᐊᐱᕆᓂᐊᖅᑐᖓ. ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᒐᕙᒪᐅᑉ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᕆᔭᒻᒥᓐᓂᒃ ᖃᐅᔨᓴᖅᑎᕐᔪᐊᒃᑯᑦ ᖃᐅᔨᓚᐅᕐᒥᒻᒪᑕ ᐅᖃᓕᒫᕐᓂᐊᕐᒥᔪᖓ ᑎᑎᕋᖅᓯᒪᔭᖓᓐᓂ. ᑖᒃᑯᐊᒎᖅ ᐊᕕᑦᑐᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐃᒡᓗᓕᕆᔨᕐᔪᐊᒃᑯᑦ ᐊᓯᔾᔩᓐᓇᕆᓐᓂᐊᕈᑎᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐊᑐᖅᑕᐅᔭᕆᐊᓖᑦ ᐋᖅᑭᓱᕐᔫᒥᓂᐊᕐᖓᑕ ᑖᓐᓇ ᑎᑎᕋᖅᓯᒪᔭᖓ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᓇᓗᓇᖅᑐᑦ ᖃᖓ ᑕᒪᓐᓇ ᓅᑕᐅᓂᐊᕐᒪᖔᖅ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᕆᔪᓐᓇᖅᑕᖏᓐᓂ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐊᖃᓕᒫᖅᑕᐅᓚᐅᖅᓯᒪᔪᖅ ᑎᑎᕋᖅᑕᐅᓚᐅᖅᓯᒪᔪᖅ ᖃᖓᐅᓕᖅᑎᓪᓗᒍ ᑐᑭᓯᔪᒪᕗᖓ ᐃᒪᓐᓇ. ᒫᓐᓇᐅᔪᖅ ᑐᑭᓯᒋᐊᖅᑎᑦᑎᒍᓐᓇᖅᐱᑎᒎᑦ ᓄᑖᕈᕆᐊᖅᓯᒪᔪᒥᑦ ᖃᖓ ᑖᓐᓇ ᑐᓐᓂᖅᓴᐃᓂᐊᕐᒪᖔᔅᓯ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᓇᒻᒥᓂᖅ ᐊᐅᓚᑦᑎᔪᓐᓇᖅᓯᓂᐊᖁᓪᓗᒋᑦ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

I'm interrupting you because you're not responding to my question. I will go on to the next one.

I will ask Minister Hajdu.

The Auditor General also quoted that “unless the departments and corporations take meaningful action to address the issues”, we will continue to have problems, and “it is unclear if the” activities “will be successful”.

Please produce an updated clarification on how this might happen soon.

[English]

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First of all, I'd like to say that although obviously there needs to continue to be ambition in the investment and in the way of the investment—and I think Minister Fraser is exactly right—through a self-determined lens, through additional tools—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry to interrupt the discussion again, but there's no interpretation into French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Let's just pause for one second here.

Please continue.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, MP Idlout, for the question.

I will just say that I think your question points to two important things. One is that the ambition of investment can't slow down and that we all have to continue in each of our respective files and ways to ensure that the priority of indigenous housing doesn't fall to the background noise that I think we can see and hear from MP Schmale's line of questioning. This is a priority for this government and it's a priority for the country because, as MP Idlout and many others know, if people don't have access to good housing, it's very difficult for them to reach their full potential.

There is some positive progress. I will say that the Government of Canada in partnership with first nations conducts something called the well-being survey. In 2016, first nations reported an average community well-being score of 58 and, by 2021, that average rose to 62. In terms of housing, first nations reported an average community well-being housing score of 68 in 2016, and that rate rose to 73. In 2016, there were 17 first nations that reported community well-being housing scores of less than 40, and by 2021 we only saw two under that amount.

This is important progress, and I think we need to guard it and continue.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐊᐱᕆᖅᑲᐅᒐᓗᐊᕋᒪ ᑕᒪᒃᑯᐊ ᓲᕐᓗ ᑐᕌᖅᑕᒐᐃᑦ…

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

I apologize. I asked you—

[English]

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout. I'm afraid that the time has elapsed here.

That concludes the first round of questioning. We're moving on to the second round now, and I have Mr. Zimmer for five minutes.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ministers.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt the discussion, but there's no interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Let's pause for a second here.

Mr. Zimmer, please go ahead.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

My questions will be for Minister Fraser.

I was in Iqaluit just a few months ago. I met Kevin and his wife, Malaya. Kevin used to be a truck driver at a Nunavut mine but is now out of a job due to the mine closing. He wanted a better life for his family, so he moved away from the rougher part of town where drugs and alcohol were prevalent. They moved into a small government-funded house with their daughter and three young grandsons in 2011. Kevin and Malaya showed me that there is mould in every corner. The bathroom plumbing is backed up and has been broken for the last few years. He has had to cover every window with plastic to stop the frigid drafts and keep his family warm. In one case, there's a kitchen window, and if he didn't keep it closed, his grandchildren could fall 15 feet down and be severely harmed as a result. The siding is falling off. The floors are falling apart. Malaya has bad asthma and is often triggered by the ever-present mould.

Minister, would you call this a success or a failure?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Anytime you're dealing with living conditions like you've just described, I think it's a signal that a greater level of investment needs to follow.

Now, to be clear—

Mr. Chair, do I have the floor for roughly the same amount of time as the questioner?

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

It's whether it was a success or a failure—

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, do I have the floor, and do I have as much time as the questioner?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Zimmer, allow the minister to answer your question, please.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I want to be careful in dealing with issues that are managed by indigenous or territorial partners without having had the chance to discuss the specific issues with those who manage the program. I hope that you don't label their work as a failure. I hope that you would not necessarily attribute that to them like the way you've put it in your question.

I think any time you see that quality of housing, it demands greater investment. We'll continue to increase the resources for our partners who manage these issues, including, presumably, the project that you're referring to.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Minister, the question was for you. I'm not asking you to answer questions based on the other housing authorities that are in Nunavut. I'm asking because the federal government has a responsibility around housing, and I asked you a simple question as to whether it was a success or a failure. It clearly is a failure.

I'll move on to my second question.

Minister, you have been in government for nine years, almost a decade. Are you familiar with the 2023 “Northern Housing Report”?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

According to the report, 80% of families in Nunavut can't afford to buy a house, and 51% of families can't even afford to rent a place to live. “The average price of a single-detached home reached a historical high of $724,504”, which was an increase of almost 20% over the previous year. As of April this year, only 55% of residents have a job. Construction is down. Residential construction is down, and non-residential construction is down.

The simple truth is the houses are not getting built, and you know that, Minister. This is from a minister who's promising four million houses across the country. There's a need for at least 3,000 more houses in Nunavut. It's not getting done.

Minister, I'll get back to it because my time is short. Would you call your housing record in Nunavut a success or a failure?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I'm just confirming that I have time to answer this question given the length of the question that was put to me.

I always ask myself the motivation behind certain questions.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.