Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I am very grateful for the presence of the minister and the officials.

I would like to start with some comments you made before, Minister.

I appreciate your comments recognizing the impact that colonization has had on exacerbating the risk that indigenous communities face. I do have a particular example with the Líl'wat Nation in my riding, which has been relocated to a location where it's subject to many different natural disaster risks.

You also mentioned the trauma that's experienced by indigenous people who are displaced. We saw that in B.C. last year with the indigenous people who were displaced by the heat dome and the fire in Lytton. Only a year later, folks started returning, but many of the indigenous people who were displaced were relocated into other indigenous communities.

For the reasons you already mentioned, there is a distrust when the government wants to relocate indigenous people. With this in mind, and to avoid the trauma you spoke of earlier, how does the government support this type of culturally appropriate temporary relocation?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That's a really great question. I will say that it's increasingly through an indigenous-led and determined approach. Not all communities want the same types of supports and not all supports work the same way in different communities and with different people.

For example—and this is not a climate-related emergency—I was in James Smith Cree Nation last week. I met with some of the family members who are dislocated from their homes as a result of damage from the horrific violence that took place in their homes.

One family—a man who has been bereaved of his wife; his surviving child, who was also a victim; and his two or three other young children—is staying in a hotel that is not in the community and in an urban setting. It is exceedingly difficult for that man as he grieves while also trying to support his children from the location of a hotel room.

In that case, of course, the family is receiving a variety of different mental health supports, but he told me that indeed it is the connection with cultural elders and some traditional healing practices that are giving the most relief from the excruciating grief, pain, fear and trauma-related disorders the entire family is facing. All the children are still out of school. It is a very challenging situation.

If you think about an entire community in that kind of space, it takes an enormous lift.

The department works extremely hard at being sensitive to the requests of the community and individual community members about what kinds of supports and services would be appropriate. We also work with partners like the Canadian Red Cross and other kinds of service delivery organizations when there's a mass evacuation, for example, to make sure that people get supports while they're dislocated. They're oftentimes staying in hotels or other larger convention centre-types of situations.

Maybe I can turn to Joanne to speak a bit about what that diversity looks like.

[Joanne Wilkinson, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services]

Absolutely.

We certainly, as the minister said, work directly with communities, because first nations need to be full and equal partners in that conversation. They need to drive what those support services look like. If that's in Manitoba, we work with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. They have an ambassadors program. We support those ambassadors in assisting communities.

In Ontario we'll work with tribal councils or with other organizations that are local to the evacuation site, and also work in direct partnership with indigenous leadership to ensure that people have access to services. We'll ensure that Jordan's principle services are available for families, and that education services are available where that's appropriate, if there's a longer-term evacuation. We make sure communities have what they need and are able to shape and frame what those supports look like.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

The audit noted that the lack of service agreements in certain provinces is increasing the risk that first nations communities are facing, and that they will not receive emergency services when they're most needed. The lack of agreements is also increasing ambiguity and confusion about roles and responsibilities.

You mentioned earlier in your statement the MOU that was concluded in B.C. I was wondering what lessons other provinces could learn from this. What is preventing more such agreements from being concluded right across the country?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Answer fairly quickly, please.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Really quickly, what B.C. experienced during the atmospheric flooding and the disjointed nature of the response really led to an increased commitment to collaboration with organizations like FNESS. I'm sorry; I can't remember what it stands for....

[A voice]

It's First Nations' Emergency Services Society.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The First Nations' Emergency Services Society has expertise in leading responses in first nations communities. I had an opportunity to visit FNESS last year and meet with some of the leaders of the organization. Out of that disjointed beginning came a real willingness by the Province of British Columbia to sit down with indigenous leaders, with FNESS, to plan a much better way to deal with future emergencies.

This multilateral agreement means that first nations people are at the table, making decisions, not receiving those decisions at the very end or being deputized to do certain things in first nations. Having first nations at the table, planning how a province, a community or a region will respond, I think, is the only way forward.

There are other really positive developments in Manitoba, for example. We're seeing some other positive responses in other provinces, but there are still some provinces that are very resistant to doing this collaborative work. I would say that it is to everybody's benefit when we work together. Indeed, whether you are first nations living in Quebec or you're non-first nations living in Quebec, you're still a Quebec resident and you're a first nations person, and you're a Canadian citizen who is entitled to a certain level of service.

We have to do better in working together. I think we'll all do much better as communities when we do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Weiler.

Mr. Ste‑Marie has the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to remind my colleagues that the Auditor General's report was about the department, not the provinces, even though the responsibilities are shared. That is what we are talking about here.

The Auditor General's report seems to indicate that we are always caught short. We react when situations arise, much more than we work upstream to prevent them.

I would like to make a connection with the housing crisis among first nations. The Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador reminds us that 225 houses are built every year, but that there is currently a shortage of 10,000. There is no timetable or action plan to build the necessary housing.

In the context of climate change emergencies, housing could be destroyed if such an event occurs, when we are already struggling to meet demand.

Minister, do you agree that Indigenous Services Canada should have an overall strategy, a plan, a vision with a timeline, so that we are not always caught short in every area where services are provided?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would go one step further and say that it shouldn't be the vision of Indigenous Services Canada. It has to be the vision of first nations communities and indigenous leaders. Then, the department has a responsibility to work in partnership with first nations and indigenous communities and, yes, provinces, to breathe life into that.

There are many services that are delivered through provincial partners that provincial partners are funded by the federal government to deliver and that residents in those provinces have a right to receive. We must all, as members of Parliament, hold accountable, at every level of government, a principle of equitable access.

I will speak a little more about health. You, I know, are familiar with the situation, the crisis, the terrible tragedy, in health care. You speak about it a lot, but it's even worse for indigenous people seeking health care. We only have to look at Joyce Echaquan and her family to see what the worst-case scenario is.

In terms of emergency management, when there is a crisis it is all hands on deck. It is provincial, municipal, federal and, indeed, first nations leaders themselves. The role we will play in the years to come is to help communities increase their capacity to have a plan in place, be able to increase their resiliency in terms of infrastructure, and increase that self-determination capacity to have a plan that's going to work and reduce the trauma that some of my colleagues have been speaking about that results from a colonial approach.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

Ms. Idlout, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

I will be speaking in my own language, Inuktitut. I have questions about emergency evacuations in first nations communities. For example, Peguis First Nation's aboriginal people in their homelands have been evacuated for 10 years. That's too much.

In the Auditor General's report, it says they worry about that issue. I am wondering what is being done for those people, and what services they have been working on.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you.

I've met with Peguis First Nation leaders now a number of times to hear about the work they were doing to restore the capacity for community members to come home after—as you pointed out—a very long time away from the community. Then, of course, they were hit with yet another catastrophic flood this spring, and even more people are now displaced.

My heart goes out to Peguis, to the people of Peguis and to the leaders who are struggling just to get their feet under them in an area that is prone to flooding with a repeat occurrence like that. It has to be demoralizing as you see progress in getting people home and then have the rug pulled out from under your feet.

We have a new memorandum of understanding with Peguis about how to move forward, including some of the prevention work that the Auditor General is speaking about, as well as a plan to rebuild. There are many difficult decisions ahead for Peguis in terms of how that will look and whether or not there is a viable future in some parts of Peguis, given the propensity to flood.

These are the horrible decisions that first nations are staring at every single day in some communities that are being increasingly threatened by unpredictable weather—in this case, flooding, a result of Peguis's being placed in a flood plain. We will do that work together.

Joanne, perhaps you can speak about where we're at.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Absolutely.

In fact, I had the pleasure—with my colleague, Kenza El Bied—of being in Peguis just last week and having discussions about breathing life into that memorandum of understanding, taking a risk-based approach.

We have, with Peguis, provided a number of advanced payments so that their financial situation is not impacted by their needing to have that cash outlay. Usually we reimburse, but in the case of Peguis we've done a number of advanced payments to ease that burden on the first nation.

There is certainly a lot of work to do, and we're committed to continuing to do that work in partnership.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

For everybody's information, we started 10 minutes late because of the vote, so we'll conclude our hour with the minister with five minutes from Mr. Zimmer followed by five minutes with Mr. Badawey.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the minister for coming today to talk about the Auditor General's report on emergency management in first nations communities.

I have many first nations communities in my own riding in northern B.C. We saw a recent example, even, of some of the struggles. We had a windstorm last year, and even throughout that particular crisis, where trees were down, etc., getting access was a challenge in order to get the power back on. We see even now, where those trees are still down, that it's posing a possible risk of forest fire and risks to our communities.

You mentioned something earlier, and a key word caught my ear, about the “disjointed” relationship. I'll maybe do a bit more of a preamble here. I've come to another minister about certain administrative issues in some of these first nations that I represent as their MP. We have tried to deal with administrative challenges, and the minister has said, look, I just can't get involved.

To me, that kind of highlights what you said about a disjointed relationship. They're asking the federal government to step in and govern, because there are no other groups to ask to do that. They're community members asking that the government step in with administrative challenges and do something, but there's a hands-off approach. They called the office number several times, whether it was one minister or the other, and got no answer to their question.

We're talking about emergency response, so I will get back to that. It does highlight, however, the disjointed nature of the relationship.

Paragraph 8.6 in the auditor's report reads as follows:

The department does not provide direct emergency response services to First Nations communities. The department negotiates emergency management service agreements with provinces or other service providers, such as the Canadian Red Cross, to provide emergency services in First Nations communities.

You know, I see that you're making a sincere effort to do what you're saying, but what measure do you have in place to really make sure it happens? For us, the way I would phrase it is that it's spending versus outcomes. How do you make sure the outcomes you're talking about here are realized in the community? Who makes sure it happens?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Like in any democracy, the people do. What you're proposing is that the federal government would interfere with an independent level of government, really. These are elected leaders who are responsible to the citizens of their community. In fact, a colonial practice prior, over many years, was to interfere in the governing of communities. The description—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Maybe I'll just clarify this a little. This might clear it up.

It's when service providers are provided with contracts and service agreements—the Canadian Red Cross or whatever the provider is. I'm not saying it's the communities themselves. I'm asking how you make sure that the service providers are providing the service.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That's a completely different question. I'm sorry. I was confused about your accountability comments earlier on.

I will say that those are contracts. There are requirements for the service providers to live up to those contracts. In fact, by and large, service providers do that in a state of emergency. If you'll recall, the Auditor General's distress in this report is about the prevention and the infrastructure expenditures that need to happen to reduce the expensive evacuations and other kinds of urgent responses.

Maybe I could turn to officials to—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Let me just say, in answer to that comment, that paragraph 8.12 on the next page says, “Overall, Indigenous Services Canada did not provide the support First Nations communities needed to manage emergencies such as floods and wildfires, which are happening more often and with greater intensity.”

This is getting to what I'm saying about outcomes.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

She is referring to the mitigation.

Let me turn to the officials to talk about how you hold service providers accountable.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Certainly, it is a conversation that we have in partnership with those who are receiving the service. It's not just about our making sure that from our perspective those conditions are being met. We do that through constant communication and follow-up, and sometimes difficult conversations. We want to ensure that those agreements are working for those who are receiving the services, so that is done in partnership with leadership and with other providers in that area.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer.

Mr. Badawey, you have five minutes.