Evidence of meeting #20 for Industry and Technology in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was read.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

François-Philippe Champagne  Minister of Finance and National Revenue

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Good morning, everyone.

I hope you're having a good week so far.

I thought we'd seen the last of each other until the new year, but as you know, I celebrate Hanukkah. With that coming up, I couldn't think of a better Hanukkah gift than being here with all of you today.

Minister, thank you for finding the opportunity to join us for a discussion that continues our study on the auto sector.

Colleagues, as you may recall, we passed a motion on October 22, 2025. We were talking, at the time, about Stellantis. That is the topic we have invited Minister Champagne to join us on today.

Minister, I will offer you an opportunity to provide some introductory remarks. Following that, as you've learned over the past number of years you've been here, we will have a set of questions from colleagues around the table.

I also have to welcome Charles Vincent, senior assistant deputy minister, industry sector, and Benoit Tessier, director general, industry sector. They have joined the minister here today.

Gentlemen, thank you for being here. Welcome.

Minister, you have the floor.

December 10th, 2025 / 4:30 p.m.

Saint-Maurice—Champlain Québec

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne LiberalMinister of Finance and National Revenue

Mr. Chair, I thank my colleagues for inviting me to appear before the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology to talk about a sector that means a great deal to me, the automotive sector.

I want to thank Mr. Vincent and Mr. Tessier, who are already familiar to us. These two colleagues have played a key role during this time.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I'm glad to be here with you. Somehow, I was missing you.

Thank you for welcoming me here to discuss not only the specific situation of the Stellantis assembly plant in Brampton, Ontario, but also the steps that our government is taking to support and defend Canadian auto workers, who are the very backbone of this vitally important industry to Canada.

Last month, as some of you will recall, I had the honour of tabling budget 2025 in the House of Commons. That budget was, more than anything else, a vote of confidence in Canadian industry and Canadian workers, as well as a recognition that our world is fundamentally changing at an unprecedented speed, on an unprecedented scale and with unprecedented scope. Some would have to go back to 1945. Others would say it's like the fall of the Berlin Wall. It's the trading route of the world economic order. It's supply chains, technology, quantum and AI. Whether you're on the factory floor, at the kitchen table or in the field in Saskatchewan, you just feel that all of this is happening. It's broad, it's coming quickly and it has impact for everyone. That's the scene in which we're operating.

As you all well know—as members of the industry committee—the United States, our largest trading partner, is fundamentally changing its trading relationships. Like I said, the speed and scale of these changes is causing massive uncertainty. As a result, we have to focus on what we can control.

I just want to put that in perspective. We were with the International Monetary Fund a few days ago. There is what they call the world uncertainty index, published by the International Monetary Fund. The world is more uncertain now than it was in 2008—to give you a sense of perspective on what we're going through as a nation and as a world. It's not by a margin. It's almost double what we found in 2008.

That's the state of the world. That's how we operate. That's why we need to chart a course for Canadian industry. That's what we've done and what we're doing, knowing that Canada has what the world wants and what, I would say, it increasingly needs.

As my honourable colleagues know, Canada possesses enviable assets, considering that it borders three oceans. It is the only country that has free trade agreements with every other G7 nation, which gives Canadian industries an incredible comparative advantage. It has preferential access to 1.5 billion consumers and it's an energy superpower, with some of the largest reserves of natural resources in the world. With 85% of its power grid made up of clean electricity, it has strong potential to power the green economy of the future.

Canada has the fiscal capacity to facilitate generational investments and transform its economy. My colleagues will recall that the International Monetary Fund found that two countries in the world stand out. Those two countries, not five, 10 or 20, are Germany and Canada, which truly have the fiscal capacity to invest in adapting to the new global economy.

More than anything, Canada has the best workforce. I can attest to that, since we meet with workers from across the country. Their excellence, their know-how and their vision are the reason that we're able to attract generational investments to this country and, of course, help build the strongest economy in the G7.

This unwavering belief in Canadian industry and Canadian workers informs every decision I make as Minister of Finance and National Revenue, just as it guided every decision I made in my time as the minister of innovation, science and industry, including the deals we signed with Stellantis, which I think is what you want to talk about. I'm glad that we can set the record straight, because we're going to bring facts to Canadians who are watching at home today.

Canada's automotive industry is a cornerstone of our economy. It contributed roughly $16.8 billion in economic activity in 2024. It directly employs more than 125,000 Canadians. This is a great and astonishing number. These are families who depend on the good work that the industry is providing, and it's supporting hundreds of thousands of jobs in indirect industries.

The strength of Canada's auto sector is one of the many reasons that Stellantis chose in 2023 to sign historic agreements with the Government of Ontario and the Government of Canada. It is also why the recent actions taken by Stellantis are unacceptable.

Let me be very clear: We are deeply disappointed by the production changes recently announced by Stellantis. Their decision to cancel production plans for the Brampton assembly plant goes against the commitments they've made to Canada, to Canadian workers and to our government. Working with both our government and Premier Ford's government, as well as the union, Stellantis made clear and also undertook a contractual undertaking to invest in Canada and in the Brampton plant. This is not a commitment that can be casually dismissed, and we are actively working to hold Stellantis to account, as my colleague, the Minister of Industry, explained to this committee recently.

We want to make sure that Stellantis meets all of its commitments to workers, to the industry and to Canada. Rest assured that we will not hesitate to assert all of our rights to hold the company to account, as provided in the contract.

Colleagues, I hope you've read every single page and clause of the contract, because we're going to refer to very specific sections so you can be informed about how the different clauses interact.

As you found out on October 23, my colleague the Minister of Industry and I announced through an order in council that Stellantis' tariff-free import quota had been reduced by 50% following the company's decision to cancel its production plans in Brampton. This decision to reduce Stellantis' tariff quotas clearly demonstrates Canada's willingness to use every means available to protect its interests.

Everyone in this room—every political party—should be acutely aware that we, as a country, are confronting new global realities, which have resulted in domestic challenges. That's why we need to build and take bold steps and actions to defend our industry.

Colleagues, you will recall that we quickly responded to the U.S. tariff on vehicles manufactured in Canada by imposing 25%-tariff countermeasures on passenger vehicles that were imported from the United States. In addition, we introduced a performance-based remission framework that allows automakers maintaining investments and production in Canada to import a set number of U.S.-assembled vehicles tariff-free under CUSMA. In lowering these quotas for Stellantis and GM, we have also shown that this framework will be available only to those who maintain their commitments to Canada and to Canadian workers.

I want to be very clear: Companies that have made commitments to Canada and our workers must honour them—full stop. We remain laser-focused on protecting Canadian jobs and ensuring that workers and their families are supported. We will use any and all tools at our disposal to do so.

In the spring, Canadians gave our government a clear mandate to defend Canada's interests and build a strong and resilient economy. They placed their trust in us because we presented them with a pragmatic approach to addressing the historic challenges facing our economy.

In conclusion, we've always known that changes in our trade relationship with the United States could have very real consequences. We also know that Canada can and will rise to these challenges with determination and confidence. Budget 2025 is an example of that.

In conclusion, we remain as firmly committed to supporting Canada's auto industry and its workers as we did the day these deals were signed, and we will not hesitate to take strong action to protect our industries and our workers. We are investing in Canada strong, and we will ensure that support goes to those who invest in Canada's future.

With that, Mr. Chair, I'll be quite happy to answer questions from my colleagues.

Thank you again for having me at this committee.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

We'll now begin the first round of questions.

Mr. Seeback, welcome to the industry committee.

You will have the floor for six minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to be clear, Minister, the members of the industry committee do not have an unredacted copy of the contract. A redacted version of the contract was given to members at the OGGO committee after weeks of fighting to get a copy of it, but I am glad to hear that you are now familiar with the clauses in the contract, because we heard at OGGO, in fact, that you hadn't read the entire contract when it was signed.

What I want to talk about specifically right away is section 6.3 of SIF agreement 813-816251, which I hope you're familiar with. Also, to be also clear, I want to have your answers, not the answers of the people you brought with you, because ministerial responsibility ultimately rests with you.

Section 6.3.1, to create and maintain high-skilled jobs in Ontario, says that the recipient shall maintain an average of 4,475 FTEs in Canada for the work phase, and that the recipient shall maintain an annual average of 4,475 FTEs in Canada for the benefits phase.

Are you aware of how many employees Stellantis employed when you signed this contract and you got this jobs guarantee?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

First of all, it's great that we have the same version. I'm working from the redacted version, and actually, I'm a lawyer, so it's going to be quite interesting to look at these things together. You may want to seek legal counsel when you're referring to certain clauses, because you'll have to understand the interaction between the clause that you mentioned, 6.3.1, and in fact, 6.3.4(d). Obviously, you have to read these two clauses together.

We were aware of the number of employees that were there, but you have to read both agreements because—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

I'm aware of that clause.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

No, but—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Just a second, Minister. I'm aware of clause 6.3.1(d), but there's an amendment that—

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Colleagues....

Mr. Seeback, don't worry. I'm pausing the clock. I know that everyone is protective of their time.

Colleagues, maybe I'll try to set the tone early. We have the minister here. We have colleagues who have questions. Let's let each other get through questions and answers. I will play nice with the time and, hopefully, we can have a good, quality conversation, which will allow us to head into the holiday season on good terms with one another.

Mr. Seeback, I've stopped the clock. There are four minutes and 10 seconds remaining. The floor is yours.

Minister, if we could let him finish....

Then, Mr. Seeback, please allow him an opportunity to respond. The floor is yours. I'm starting the clock again.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Minister, I'm aware of clause 6.3.1(d), which talks about how they will maintain production at the Brampton facility, but are you aware there was an amendment to the SIF agreement that clearly contemplates the closing of that facility?

It's in amendment number two, which my colleague has a copy of, so I don't need to be told that the Brampton facility couldn't close. My question to you was this: How many full-time employees did Stellantis have when you signed this contract? You're only guaranteeing 4,475 FTEs.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Sir, do you know for how long the duration of the contract is?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Minister, I don't know if you know how this works—

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I'm trying to help you, because if you understand the clause.... I'm a lawyer, so I can help you interpret the contract.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

I was a lawyer as well. When I'm the minister, you can ask me questions. That's fine.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I'm trying to help you understand that—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

No. I'm asking you. Did you know how many full-time employees Stellantis had? You can either say, “Yes, I did” and tell me, or you can say, “No, I don't”. You don't ask me a question. That's not how it works, sir.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I'm trying to help you. You should be grateful. I'm here to help you. I'm trying to help you understand the contract. I appreciate that you didn't sign it. You didn't negotiate it. You didn't even participate in the negotiation. I did—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

You kept it hidden for two years.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

—so it's easier because I can help you and help Canadians understand—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Why don't you just help me right now and help Canadians by saying how many actual full-time employees Stellantis had when you signed the contract?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

What you need to look.... The number you have there is an average over a period of 12 years, so what you have there is a floor, and I would say to you that you should refer to.... If you seek legal advice, you would see that when you have these contracts with respect to the floor of employment for the auto industry, they usually go for a decade. What you have is that you have an average over a period of time.

This is a floor. That's what I'm trying to help you understand. This is like a floor, and when you read that clause—bear with me just for one second; I appreciate that you have a question—you need to read the other SIF agreement, because they go together. There's a connection between the two SIF agreements, which are the NextStar and the Stellantis.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

I really don't need you condescendingly telling me to read things.

What it says is that the recipient shall maintain an average of 4,475 FTEs in Canada during the work phase. We're in the work phase because work is being done. Stellantis had 8,000 employees when you signed this contract—8,000—so that means they could fire 3,500 employees and still be in compliance with this agreement.

That there, sir, is the problem.

Under this SIF agreement, the combined contributions were $3 billion, and they were still allowed, during the work phase, to fire up to 3,500 employees. Now they've fired 3,000 employees in Brampton. They did exactly what they were allowed to do. How can you say that this was a contract that was going to protect the workers?

My subsequent to that is this: Did you tell Unifor that this was part of the contract? Because I bet you that you didn't. They would not have been happy that you were allowed to fire 3,500.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Sir, you're making lots of assumptions for someone who was not at the table. I don't recall seeing you negotiate the contract with us. Maybe I'm getting old, but I cannot remember seeing you at the table when we negotiated.

When you see that clause, like I said, you have to read it in connection with 6.3.4(d). That's what I'm trying to explain to you. This is a floor. That was the commitment by Stellantis, and you need to read it in conjunction with the other SIF agreement, the NextStar agreement, because that agreement also has a floor.

Let me answer—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Please, sir, under amendment agreement number one, it says that if the recipient closes the Brampton assembly plant prior to December 31, 2035, and the closure cannot be shown to be about the result of a whole bunch of things. Therefore, your section (d) doesn't matter, because in an amendment, you clearly contemplated that the plant could close.

Don't lecture me, sir, on reading the contract. I've read it.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Mr. Seeback, I'm going—