Evidence of meeting #6 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was organizations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wayne Lennon  Senior Project Leader, Corporate and Insolvency Law Policy and Internal Trade Directorate, Department of Industry
Coleen Kirby  Manager, Policy Section, Corporations Canada, Department of Industry
Roger Charland  Senior Director, Corporate and Insolvency Law Policy and Internal Trade Directorate, Department of Industry

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

I call the meeting to order.

I'd like to welcome the Honourable Diane Ablonczy and her departmental officials, who are here to talk to us today about Bill C-4, an act respecting not-for-profit corporations and certain other corporations.

My understanding is that the minister has a ten-minute opening statement. Then we'll open the floor to members for questions and comments.

Before we do that, I want to introduce the two analysts we have with us today. We have Alysia Davies, who is an analyst and a lawyer with the Library of Parliament, and we have Nathalie Pothier, who is an economist with the Library of Parliament. Welcome to our committee.

Without further ado, go ahead, Minister.

3:30 p.m.

Calgary Nose Hill Alberta

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy ConservativeMinister of State (Small Business and Tourism)

Thank you, Mr. Chair and colleagues.

This is actually my very first time, as a junior minister, or any other kind of minister, appearing before a parliamentary committee. I'm very pleased that it's with you all. I'm also very pleased that it's about a bill we very much want to finally get into law. So thank you for this opportunity to address you on Bill C-4.

Bill C-4 has a gripping title. I know that you're going to be on the edge of your seats. It's an act respecting not-for-profit corporations and certain other corporations. We can say that this is a bill whose time has definitely come. It represents the eighth time, colleagues, the third time in the past year alone, that a Canadian government has attempted to reform a statute. This statute was first brought into law in 1917, and of course you can appreciate that it no longer serves the needs of its principal stakeholders.

As I said when the bill was introduced in the House, not-for-profit organizations are a crucial part of Canada's economic structure. There are more than 160,000 not-for-profits, of which some 19,000 are federally incorporated. They accounted for over $136 billion in revenues in 2003 and employed some two million people.

So this is what the core of Bill C-4 is about. We have before us an opportunity to update and modernize an important marketplace framework statute that has not been substantially amended in over 90 years, which is older than any of us, fortunately. In that time, the world in which not-for-profit corporations operate has changed dramatically. In 1917, when the concept of a not-for-profit corporation was added to the general corporations statute, most such corporations were very small, self-financing entities that provided much-needed local services and that operated in a non-electronic world. Such small local organizations still exist, of course, but they share the landscape with huge national, even international, organizations with annual budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

The trick in modernizing legislation of this kind is to balance the needs of the small with the large, the local with the national, the member-financed mutual aid society with the organization that solicits public money. That is not easy. Business corporations typically have interests that are largely homogenous: consistent profits, good public relations, keeping shareholders and other stakeholders happy. Not-for-profit corporations and other corporations without share capital, by contrast, have the most divergent interests imaginable.

The proposed legislation would apply to churches and other religious organizations, industry associations, charities, foundations, special interest groups, political parties, and sporting organizations, to name a few. What the proposed act does, then, is establish broad rules for setting up a not-for-profit corporation, or one without share capital, to ensure that it operates in a fair and transparent manner before its members and the public and to allow for an orderly dissolution of the corporation if circumstances warrant.

The proposed act definitely does not address the granting of charitable status or taxation policy of any kind. That is the role of the Canada Revenue Agency. Nor does it deal with the question of funding for federal not-for-profit corporations. This is a bill that simply proposes broad ground rules for modern not-for-profit corporations. That is all it does and all it is intended to do.

One area I want to deal with right at the outset is the apparent size and complexity of the proposed legislation. I can easily imagine how anyone looking at a 170-page bill with some 373 sections could question how this could possibly make life easier for not-for-profit corporations. In fact, the bill does exactly that. Let me explain in detail.

What the new statute proposes is to clarify areas that are not now currently addressed in the federal not-for-profit law. It would do so without imposing any significant burden on small or medium-sized corporations while at the same time ensuring that they are covered by a modern corporate governance framework.

For most not-for-profit corporations, the regulatory burden will be minimal. At the initial incorporation stage, an applicant will have to fill out relatively simple forms, file their articles, and pay the incorporation fee. That's it.

Annually, most corporations will have to complete financial statements, which they would have to do anyway for tax purposes, and send that financial information to members. Soliciting corporations, those that receive money from governments or the public, will also have to file these with Corporations Canada.

Additionally, corporations will be required to convene an annual meeting and file an annual return. This is not new. Corporations are required to do this now. But the new act will allow almost unlimited flexibility in how corporations do this. They will be able to communicate, hold meetings, and file documents with Corporations Canada electronically if they so choose. This represents a significant reduction in the regulatory and paper burden. The new audit requirements represent a potential further reduction of the regulatory and paper burden on smaller corporations.

Under the current statute, all corporations are required to have their financial statements audited. As members well know, this can cost several thousand dollars, potentially representing a sizeable portion of the budget of small corporations. The new provisions provide a graduated audit requirement based on the source of a corporation's funding, whether it's from members or whether from the public or governments, and the amount of its gross annual revenue. Under the new rules, soliciting corporations, those that derive their revenue from donations or government grants, that have revenues of less than $25,000 can dispense with audits entirely. This is also the case with non-soliciting corporations with revenues of less than $1 million. Of course, this represents an immediate and very substantial cost saving, especially for small soliciting corporations operating on shoestring budgets.

Most of the rest of the proposed act establishes rules of good corporation governance or provisions that address contingent situations. The corporate governance rules include provisions dealing with areas such as directors' liabilities, members' rights, and responsibilities of directors, officers, and the auditor. These are all areas familiar to the legal and professional communities, and the principles in the bill are just good, modern corporate business practice. I know that the not-for-profit sector will welcome clear and understandable corporate governance standards. Charities and other soliciting corporations that compete for limited donor dollars will find them especially useful.

Finally, there are the provisions that deal with the contingent situations, which for most corporations will probably never arise. These include, for example, provisions for corporate reorganizations. Most corporations will never amalgamate with another corporation, but it is incumbent upon the government to provide clear, fair, and transparent rules for those corporations that choose to do so.

What these contingent rules do is establish procedures, in some cases by filling in holes that exist in the current law. For example, an amalgamation of two or more corporations under the current act can actually take years with untold legal and accounting costs. Under the proposed statute, a short-form amalgamation would take days at most, with minimal costs. While as I said, most corporations will never amalgamate, this represents real streamlining for those that will.

The flexibility and clarity built into the act is why we decided that a classification scheme under the act was necessary; that is, we chose not to regulate different types of corporations differently. Rather, we chose to provide a framework that will allow corporations the maximum flexibility to organize themselves in a manner that works best for them.

A classification system establishing different rules for different categories of corporations would cause an admittedly complex piece of legislation to be even more complicated. By necessity, some rules, such as those related to directors' liability, would have to apply to all corporations, while other rules would apply to only one corporation. Added to this would be the difficulties in classifying some corporations. There are some organizations that would easily fit within several categories. For example, a corporation could be a mutual benefits society, such as a religion-based community club, but it could also collect funds for sending children to summer camp, operate a shelter for homeless individuals, and also engage in family counselling. So what classification is it? What rules would apply if there was a conflict in interpretation?

Instead, much like the Canada Business Corporations Act, this act provides for a system of self-regulation and self-enforcement. This is done by allowing corporations the maximum flexibility in writing their own articles and bylaws, and providing for civil remedies in the event of internal disputes. This would allow federal not-for-profit corporations to devote their time, energies, and money to fulfilling the purpose for which they organized in the first place.

Members of the committee, it is time that this bill be examined and passed as expeditiously as possible. Not-for-profit corporations have been waiting for a new governing statute for literally years, and they have been extremely disappointed every time it has died on the order paper.

Let me close by saying that I'm happy to have had the opportunity to be here with you today, and I also want to introduce the Industry Canada officials here today: Roger Charland is a senior director for the corporate and insolvency law policy and internal trade directorate--I think he gets paid by the words in his title. Also we have Wayne Lennon, who is a senior project leader on the not-for-profit file, and he's done all the heavy lifting on this bill. And Coleen Kirby is here; she's the manager of the policy section at Corporations Canada, and is especially knowledgeable about all the regulations.

We look forward to responding to any questions or concerns you may have about this bill.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Garneau.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the honourable member for her introductory remarks on Bill C-4. I certainly echo her comment that this bill is long overdue.

As the member knows, the bill actually traces its origin back a number of years to the Liberal Party and Bill C-21. As such, our party supports its intent, for sure.

I would have one question for the honourable member. Is she satisfied that this bill does not conflict with any provincial or territorial laws dealing with not-for-profit corporations?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Mr. Chair, member, I am satisfied. In fact, not-for-profit corporations can incorporate either federally or provincially; it's their choice. So the federal government's incorporation laws are a choice for not-for-profits. They can also choose whatever applicable provincial laws they might want to incorporate under, and as you know, many of them do. So there is no conflict. It of course draws on the best practices of a number of the not-for-profit laws in some of the other provinces. In particular, I think Saskatchewan was a bit of a template for this particular bill.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Do you have any other questions?

Ms. Coady.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Thank you very much.

Thank you for taking the time to come here today and talk to us about this important bill.

I'm from Newfoundland and Labrador, so I'll use that to put it in context. There are roughly 500 not-for-profit corporations under the federal guidelines from Newfoundland and Labrador. About 210 are harbour authorities. This is to give some context of what kind of not-for-profit corporations are under this act federally.

My question goes to the mechanism for implementation. When I look at these harbour authorities, there's no paid staff, they're very small and in small communities, and there are very limited resources available to them. Luckily for harbour authorities, of which roughly 50% are from the federal registration, they can lean a little on DFO for support, but there are a lot of others that do not have that mechanism for assistance in implementation.

I have two questions on this particular issue.

First of all, this bill affects change in a system of all sizes and sophistications, and the minister has acknowledged that up front. Can you give us some assurances of how your department will go about the education process, the assistance process? I know, for example, in the implementation of some of their regulations CRA reached out to give some technical support and they had a mechanism and means for assisting some of the charitable organizations in compliance. Perhaps you could talk about that.

The second question goes to the costs and compliance burden. We all know that accountability is exceptionally important, both financially as well as from a governance perspective, and it is essential, but not-for-profit organizations can become overburdened.

Perhaps you can take those two questions as one.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I thank the member.

The member and I actually met in Halifax last year and we had a good conversation there. I'm very pleased that she's now a colleague.

As soon as the act is passed, a notice will be sent by the director of corporations to all active part II Canada Corporations Act corporations, and that's when the three-year transition period starts. Everyone will get a notice and everyone has three years to make the transition.

All a corporation will have to do to continue under the new act is simply file an application. There will be no fee for corporations to transfer to the new legislation and the notice will contain all the necessary information. In other words, you get information about how to make the transition at the time the notice is sent out that there's a new regime in place. The notice that will be sent out will give complete information to the corporations you mentioned on what they have to do to make the transition. They have three years and no cost to do it. So I think it will be relatively easy.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I sense the streamlined process here, and for some of the larger ones this is quite a simple process, but my concern is for smaller organizations that do not have paid staff to even accept the information that you're giving them. It's a 170-page bill, and as you acknowledged, it's quite daunting when you receive it, especially when you're a not-for-profit organization with non-professional staff. I'm hoping there will be some mechanism.

Perhaps the minister can ask her team to go back and put a mechanism in place for assistance for small organizations that may not have the available opportunity. I know it may be a simple form, but there are some pretty stiff processes in there.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I'll make a note of that. Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

There are complexities in this bill. My question now is around assistance for that, and that's why I asked it.

It's been suggested that there be a minimum set of standards developed instead of the two-tier approach. A lot of the bill deals with this two-tier approach. I'm wondering if you could answer whether it would ease some of the complexities. Maybe we should have a minimum standard rather than this two-tier approach that's in the current legislation. Perhaps you could talk to that.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

A two-tier approach to...?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

You have a number of levels within your legislation.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Ablonczy Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Right. It's because there are different types of not-for-profits, actually. Maybe I'll just let the officials clarify which of those, because I think there are four tiers, aren't there?

3:45 p.m.

Wayne Lennon Senior Project Leader, Corporate and Insolvency Law Policy and Internal Trade Directorate, Department of Industry

If you mean the difference between soliciting and non-soliciting, the bill actually does give only minimal standards. There are only five differences between soliciting and non-soliciting corporations.

Soliciting corporations have to have three directors instead of one; non-soliciting can have one. The audit requirements are a little more onerous for soliciting corporations simply because there's a public policy reason involved: they collect money from the government or the public, so there's a public interest in what they actually do with that money. They cannot have a unanimous members' agreement, soliciting corporations, which is not something that may happen very often, but it's forbidden for them. There's a difference in what they do with the funds upon dissolution, which again won't affect them on a day-to-day basis until they actually do dissolve. And the financial statements have to be filed with Corporations Canada. It's not really that much of a difference between the soliciting and the non-soliciting.

The various categories for audit requirements is maybe what you're referring to. But the requirements are minimal. Under $25,000 there's no need for an audit at all, and they can decide not to do that. Between $25,000 and $50,000, is it...?

March 5th, 2009 / 3:50 p.m.

Coleen Kirby Manager, Policy Section, Corporations Canada, Department of Industry

Under $50,000.

The audit requirements, if you're a soliciting corporation, are that if you have less than $50,000 in gross annual revenues you may choose to have no audit. Between $50,000 and $250,000 the default is to have an audit with an option of having a review engagement, which is a lower level of review based on members. Over $250,000 you have to have an audit.

For non-soliciting corporations the dividing line is at the $1 million mark. Right now, 100% have to have an audit. Under this regime, if you are smaller, if you are not using public money, you will be able to have a lower level of review.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Madame Kirby.

We're going to go now to Monsieur Bouchard.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here this afternoon. Thanks also to your colleagues.

I read information concerning this bill and observed that steps were undertaken almost 10 years ago. One also observes a strong interest in modernization and great transparency when it comes to structuring an organizing not-for-profit organizations.

I have to tell you that my party is in favour of the principle of the bill. However, we believe that it needs to be improved, specifically when it comes to the oversight of federal government powers and areas of jurisdiction, as well as the classification of organizations. At first glance, there are the two points with which we take issue; perhaps there are others.

I am coming to my first question about the oversight and federal government areas of jurisdiction set out in the bill, although my question deals more with the lack of a description.

Under section 92 of the Canadian Constitution, management of the social economy, volunteerism and community outreach are provincial jurisdictions. All matters of a purely local of private nature are the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces and of Quebec. Currently, section 154 of the Canada Corporations Act stipulates that the federal government may confer upon a corporation the rights to incorporate if the corporation is pursuing objectives of national, patriotic, religious or philanthropic nature, per example.

Why does not the bill provide an oversight process in respect of the federal government's areas of jurisdiction?

3:50 p.m.

Roger Charland Senior Director, Corporate and Insolvency Law Policy and Internal Trade Directorate, Department of Industry

As the Minister indicated, the purpose of the bill is to modernize the act. In so far as possible, there has been attempt to maintain some level of consistency among federal corporate statutes.

In this respect, I have borrowed the approach contained in the Canada Corporations Act. Consequently, the aim is to simply give companies an opportunity to incorporate federally without necessarily displacing or moving in on provincial areas of jurisdiction. That does not prevent anyone from deciding to incorporate provincially, if they so desire. By modernizing the act the desire was to simply create a system which gave people a choice between the two options. And that is consistent with what you find in all other federal corporate acts, and in no way does it alter or encroach on jurisdiction.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

I have a question about the classification system.

According to the Charity and Not For Profit National Law Section, the Canadian Bar has found a major defect with the bill in terms of the non-classification of mutual organizations or public charity organizations. There are number of interesting distinctions to be highlighted, and particularly attention must be given to this.

In your opinion, don't you think it is important to develop an NPO classification system for mutual organizations, charities or public charitable organizations?

3:55 p.m.

Senior Director, Corporate and Insolvency Law Policy and Internal Trade Directorate, Department of Industry

Roger Charland

As it has been pointed out, when time comes to establish this classification, in practice, it becomes extremely difficult to know in which classification you fit. Increasingly, not for profits are operating at various levels and conducting a different type of activities. The desire was to make it less complicated for individuals who are incorporating or operating within a not for profit to determine in which category he fits.

To simplify things, baselines, minimum criteria and some level of flexibility were instituted enabling individuals to put together a corporation and its regulations in a way that makes it possible for the corporation to carry out its operations and make its objectives. A distinction just had to be made between solicitation and the origin of funds as a result of the public interest component of funding which essentially means public money.

The goal was to essentially avoid a overall complex situation linked to the classification process which would only have led to debate over which category you actually fit into.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

I'd like to get back to the issue of provincial and federal government areas of jurisdiction.

You said that organizations could choose to call on either the federal government or the provincial government for their incorporation. I would like you to expand a little. Does this mean there is no oversight? People can proceed freely? If an organization is currently locally based but could eventually be Canada-wide, could people request a charter at the federal level? Is that correct?

I'd like you to comment on that a little further. Do you find that this clarifies somewhat the issue of authority and areas of jurisdiction?

3:55 p.m.

Senior Director, Corporate and Insolvency Law Policy and Internal Trade Directorate, Department of Industry

Roger Charland

The bill aims to allow any individual to incorporate a non-profit organization at the federal level. Further to that, it would have to follow established rules. However, there would be no oversight as detailed as what you've referred to.

I would reiterate that this type of approach exists in other corporate laws like the Canada Business Corporations Act. It is simply an approach we've chosen.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Did this definition not seem like an encroachment to you?