Industry Committee on March 26th, 2015

[Randy Bundus]

The Spencer decision, which relates to the ability of the police to request information of the service provider—the Internet service provider, if I recollect the facts properly—doesn't really have a big impact on our industry. However, we do require as an industry that, when the police come to us requesting information, they illustrate their lawful authority for that.

If as a result of the Spencer decision they have to show a greater degree of scrutiny in providing that lawful authority, then it's really up to the police to make sure they do that. I don't believe our industry will have any difficulty in having the police come forward with the appropriate lawful authority to show they are entitled to receive the information they are asking for.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

So when the court says that Canadians have a reasonable expectation of privacy with their information, you don't think that's going to have an impact on your industry.

[Randy Bundus]

With regard to what's meant by a reasonable expectation of privacy, we have to balance privacy rights against the fact that there's fraud out there, so what is reasonable has to be determined in that context.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

Who else would like to answer?

Mr. Pigeon.

[Marc-André Pigeon]

I'll ask my colleague Rob to deal with this.

[Rob Martin]

We haven't had our counsel review it from the constitutional perspective in light of the Spencer decision. We're working on the basis that the government has vetted this bill through its own lawyers—Justice—and that it would actually hold water in that context.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Zinatelli.

[Frank Zinatelli]

We're in a very similar position as expressed by the Insurance Bureau of Canada, but I would also note that subsequent to the Spencer decision—I'm not going to remember what—there was a decision in December having to do with access to cell phones that maybe changes that again the other way. I think that's an ongoing discussion that will take place.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

It's an evolving field, for sure.

[Frank Zinatelli]

Yes, very much so.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Ms. Gratton.

[Dr. Éloïse Gratton]

Definitely; in Spencer, the court said that individuals have an expectation of privacy in their online activities, and therefore, before you come knocking at the door of an ISP to get the identity behind an IP address, you need to have a warrant in hand.

Now with the sharing without consent provisions, are ISPs going to be exchanging information in copyright infringement cases, therefore without a warrant? Definitely, I think, if there's one clause that perhaps should be changed before the bill is passed, in my view it would be toning down the sharing without consent, making sure there is transparency exactly for this reason, to make sure it's consistent with the transparency trend.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

You raised this earlier, and you said that you were concerned about the potential for a fishing expedition. I think the industry expressed its concerns, which I think are reasonable, that you want to prevent fraud and make sure that there aren't illegitimate cases that are coming forward and really raising all of the costs for everyone else in the insurance business.

Ms. Gratton, you made the comment that you think there is concern about the potential for a fishing expedition, and then you said greater transparency maybe after the fact. I'd just like you to explain what you meant by that.

[Dr. Éloïse Gratton]

I'm thinking that we need to think very closely about the threshold at which this type of information could be exchanged to make sure that we avoid fishing expeditions. I would propose making sure that there is some type of transparency so that people are aware that these exchanges are taking place.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

So you're saying after the fact, if there has been information sharing, that there be some kind of informing of the—

[Dr. Éloïse Gratton]

I would need to think about that a bit more, whether it be at the time of or after the fact, depending on the case. The idea is being transparent.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Yes.

Anyone else?

[Frank Zinatelli]

I just wanted to comment that certainly the life and health insurance industry has very rigorous due diligence processes in place, and indeed it has oversight within the company itself. Of course, there's the overall oversight by the Privacy Commissioner, who has also appeared before this committee.

I think there might be the need for the discussion, but certainly we are going in intending to completely follow the act and not use it for fishing expeditions.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

Yes.

[Richard Dubin]

I can verify that with the significant training we do on an ongoing basis with member insurance companies, one of the first things we train them on is that you never go on a fishing expedition. You have to have reasonable grounds, acting as a reasonable, prudent person would, and if you are going to contact the other insurer and if you are going to get into the discussion, you document your file accordingly so that you stay away from that type of situation.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

Do I have time for just one quick question? Maybe I'll just throw it out there and maybe it's something I can get later.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Okay. One minute is fine.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

There was a question that got raised at the last meeting about work product, and if pharmaceutical companies get access to the prescriptions that doctors are writing through pharmacists and then go back and it becomes a marketing tool for them, it seems to me that could also raise insurance premiums. I'm wondering if your sector has a concern about the potential for that work product in terms of marketing use.

[Frank Zinatelli]

I would love to be able to answer that, but I'll have to think about it.

I would be happy to speak with you bilaterally later on, or through the clerk.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Okay. Thank you.