Yes. Absolutely.
Evidence of meeting #112 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was publishers.
Evidence of meeting #112 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was publishers.
2:40 p.m.
Editorial Director, Portage and Main Press, Association of Manitoba Book Publishers
Yes. Absolutely.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
In your opinion, when a school or a university says, “We're spending more on digital, and that's why the authors and the publishers aren't enjoying as much revenue”, does that make any sense to you?
2:40 p.m.
Editorial Director, Portage and Main Press, Association of Manitoba Book Publishers
No. Again, with this book, we just had a request from a university library for the e-book, not to buy it but to have it forever for lending rights. They wouldn't give us a term on it, instead of going through the usual process for lending rights. They would not give us a limit; they wanted it in perpetuity, and we basically said no.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you.
My next question is for Ms. Andrew and your colleague.
Can you give us a breakdown of the source of the content? If not immediately, please pass it on to our committee. I know my colleague has asked whether it is digital, whether it is print, but I would like to know which countries' authors you are paying. Are you paying Germany's authors? Are you paying America's authors? How much are you paying Canadian content authors? Do you have those numbers?
2:40 p.m.
Director and General Counsel, Office of Fair Practices and Legal Affairs, University of Manitoba
Yes, do we have—
2:40 p.m.
University Librarian, University of Manitoba
I can give you some numbers. We've also put them in the submission.
I just want to put a point of clarification, and I will give you an example that helps answer that question. When you're talking about paying authors, we have what we purchased from Canadian publishers and Canadian authors. There are many Canadian authors who are publishing in American journals, of course, with American publishers, so when you ask the question about paying Canadian authors, I can say we know how much Canadian content we're buying—in other words, published Canadian content. We don't know it totally, but we've been able to pull some of that out for you.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
When you pull content from another country, whether or not it's from a Canadian author, do you pay those publishers copyright fees that you would not pay to a Canadian publisher?
2:40 p.m.
University Librarian, University of Manitoba
We pay the same.
We acquire materials in two ways. We acquire print materials by buying the print copy. When we buy electronic materials, we pay a licence to the publisher. If it is an American publisher, it would be under that licence; that's how we acquire it. If it's a Canadian publisher, it's likewise.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
2:40 p.m.
University Librarian, University of Manitoba
You would not, because the licence supersedes that and gives us the terms and conditions of use.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Access Copyright represents Canadian authors and publishers, but they have said they're not being paid.
2:40 p.m.
University Librarian, University of Manitoba
Well, it is the responsibility of the publisher we acquire from, whoever it is—it could be an aggregator of some sort, or a publisher—to pay the authors when they give us the licence.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Okay. I'll move to another person, but I want to keep that in mind.
Ms. Rollins, on the very detailed explanation of the various cost breakdowns within the Winnipeg school district, I just want to know if you have a number for how much out of your $396 million operating budget currently is spent on copyright licensing.
2:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Trustees, Winnipeg School Division
It is approximately $34,000.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
2:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Trustees, Winnipeg School Division
—a dollar per student.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
So Access Copyright...and numerous publishers have listed that. It's about $26. That's what the cost would be to return to a collective licensing regime. With a $396 million budget, and with 33,000 students, paying $26 each adds up to about 0.002% of your total budget. How do you square that with your statement that this has a devastating, severe, negative impact when it is 0.002% of your total budget?
2:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Trustees, Winnipeg School Division
Well, in part I did review how I've squared that. There is a downloading of federal government costs, and the copyright would just be on the list of how we're getting squeezed from a provincial government that didn't give us an increase despite the fact that hydro rates are going up, and a federal government that has long not paid for the effects of colonialism and funding on-reserve.
I'd also say that years ago, when we were paying approximately $2 a student, there were provisions in the Copyright Act for that.
This isn't what I understand the committee is coming forward on for a new formula. We're here to talk about fair dealing provisions and our desire to see them maintained.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Yes, but if we did take education out of fair dealing, we would probably have to return to a collective licensing regime in order to fulfill the law.
I'm going to move to the reconciliation, which you did bring up. We heard testimony from a professor emeritus, Dr. Andrea Bear Nicholas in which she stated quite clearly, to paraphrase, that the act of taking something from an indigenous creator—and we have been talking a lot about indigenous users—and not compensating them for it is an act of colonialism.
How would your school compensate indigenous authors fairly under the truth and reconciliation principles?
2:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Trustees, Winnipeg School Division
First of all, we do have indigenous authors on staff in our division—and it's not a school, but a school division, and we have indigenous authors as part of our faculty.
I did go over some of the copyright provisions that we promote, such as that we invest funds through licences to ensure copyright holders are compensated. An example is SOCAN, or the National Film Board of Canada. Some of our faculty participate in the National Film Board and Re:Sound—
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Is that all included in the $34,000 number, or is that in addition to $34,000?
2:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Trustees, Winnipeg School Division
There's more, such as Criterion-on-Demand film performance licences, and performance fees to music companies, so we do our part.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Is that included in the $34,000 number, or is that on top of it?
2:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Trustees, Winnipeg School Division
That can be over and above. I just gave you an estimate on any given year.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
If it's $34,000, what would be the total number that is spent on licensing and SOCAN and those things, including these additional things you've said?