Industry Committee on May 22nd, 2018

[Zach Churchill]

There's been a move in our jurisdiction to more local content, so we've partnered with our African Nova Scotian community, our indigenous population through the Mi'kmaq nation, local writers to ensure there's more local content in our curriculum. There has been a move in that regard in Nova Scotia that I can speak to very specifically, and I think that has happened in other jurisdictions as well.

The fundamental question here is this. How do we define what's fair, between the needs of the industry, which we recognize, and the needs of the education system? The courts have done a lot of work for us around the idea of fair dealing. They have heard extensive testimony from both sides and have come up with a definition that we believe makes sense, and that we don't want to see thrown out overnight.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I understand. I guess I'm looking for the response.

Any time I hear that the courts are dealing with a process, that's a failure of public policy, from our point of view federally...in this particular instance. We make decisions here that need sorting out in other jurisdictions, because they still haven't fully.... Perhaps with the complexity of copyright and the changing ways things are done, it was bound to end up there in some way anyway.

I'm looking for the things that were done, or could be done, to help some of the artists who are still transitioning here. That's what I'm curious about. In terms of your representation of the provinces, was there any overall plan, or is it each province? You mentioned Nova Scotia and what you've done. I represent an area of the underground railroad to Canada, so I know some of the stories directly that link my community to yours. Do you know if the other provinces are doing more comprehensive work to try to bring forth local culture, maybe new artists and new content providers?

[Zach Churchill]

It does vary from province to province, and it's primarily in the field of the heritage departments, the culture departments, that exist provincially.

As a representative of the education system, I think we're doing our part to make sure we have more local content, particularly around parts of our history that haven't been told from a local perspective.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

We're going to move to Mr. Sheehan.

You have five minutes.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much, Minister.

I appreciate your being here, as well as Wanda, to help us with this copyright review today,

Recently we did a cross-country tour that allowed us to hear from various regions, various school districts, authors, and universities and colleges from coast to coast. When we were in Toronto, we heard testimony from someone who was fairly good, and who likened it to the 401, which is their superhighway, where someone will drive 100 when they first get their licence but then go up to 105, 110, and so on, then it's 120, and next it's the autobahn. She likened that to copyright, where someone takes one copy just because, and then so on. Then fast forward, we heard testimony from some authors in western Canada about their whole works being photocopied and distributed to classes.

What steps do school boards or the provincial ministers of education take to educate teachers and students on the copyright laws, and what kinds of policies do they put in place?

[Zach Churchill]

That's a really important question, because this is important to us as well.

We want to be following the guidelines of fair dealing, which means short excerpts only can be photocopied. We have heard anecdotally that there are examples of educators photocopying a full textbook, for example, and distributing that. The evidence, though, which has been assessed by the Federal Court of Appeal and the Copyright Board of Canada, indicates that in 98% of cases, photocopying is happening within the confines of fair dealing.

I think part of our success in that regard is due to the education we're providing to our educators. We do have manuals that are distributed to every single school in the country. We have these sorts of posters that are supposed to be at every single photocopier to inform people.

As ministers of education, we are further investing money, $5 million, to enhance our education on copyright and on the roles and responsibilities of teachers and to do further third party assessments on how we're doing. The Federal Court of Appeal and the Copyright Board of Canada consistently say 98% of the photocopying is happening within fair dealing. We're going to spend some money to utilize an independent third party to come in and provide us with an additional assessment to make sure we're doing our part, because we do not want to be operating outside of the realm of fair dealing. We do have a vested interest in the success of our creative industries. Our education system is dependent on them. We need to make sure that short excerpts of information from a wide range of sources are accessible to our students and available and affordable.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

You've indicated that 98% are complying. For the other 2%, do local school boards or schools monitor that, and, if so, how? If they find a student or a teacher not in compliance, what steps are taken?

[Zach Churchill]

In terms of enforcement, oftentimes that process will vary from province to province, from school board to school board. As with any rule that teachers are supposed to be following or that our administrators are supposed to be following, there's a process in place in each one of our jurisdictions to ensure that the rules are being followed.

If something happens, it's dealt with either through a performance mechanism or through disciplinary action, depending on what's appropriate. Those processes do vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but they're there.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I was formerly a school board trustee, many, many years ago. The funding models have changed. In different jurisdictions in Ontario the mill rate is set not by the school board trustees but at the provincial level. Are the provinces and the school boards putting more money aside for copyright? Is it staying the same? One of the questions we had was how copyright was being funded and whether there are mechanisms in place for the province or the school board in that district to put more money into copyright.

[Zach Churchill]

The number of dollars we're spending to purchase materials for our education systems is going up as a whole.

As the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada, collectively we'll be putting forward $5 million to enhance education around copyright and to, as I mentioned earlier, do further assessment on compliance with the rules around fair dealing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you. We're good.

Mr. Bernier, you have five minutes.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you.

I just want to go back to the cost. My colleagues have asked a number of questions about what it costs you. Since 2012, how much do school boards spend annually on average to acquire copyright?

There is another question the committee has wondered about since its hearings on the matter began. Under the new Copyright Act, has that amount increased or decreased, and by how much roughly?

I would like you to clarify those figures.

[Zach Churchill]

Since 2012—and the numbers from Statistics Canada are in your packages—the sales by the publishing industry to the K-to-12 or the P-to-12 education system have gone up. Book sales have gone up from 2012 all the way to 2016, and you see those numbers detailed in each of those graphs there.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Do you think you saved some money at the end, or are you paying more for these rights?

[Zach Churchill]

We're paying more in materials, but the nature of those materials is changing. We are investing more in course materials in our education systems. What we're worried about is the mandatory tariff that would—if the proposal is accepted—take approximately $53 million outside of our education system as a subsidy to the industry. So that is something that we are concerned about and that number is not reflective of Quebec. That number is reflective of all the provinces involved in the consortium on copyright, but that is where we do have a concern because those dollars are precious. That is the equivalent of hundreds of teaching positions and specialized resources in our classrooms. That number will have an impact on education delivery for our students.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

So your point of view is to keep the status quo and what the court decided is the definition of fair dealing. Are you comfortable with that?

[Zach Churchill]

We support the court definition of fair dealing. It's not an easy question to answer. I think the courts have done us a service in terms of tackling that important question over the course of 10 years. I do think it makes sense that if you're only photocopying an excerpt of a text, a chapter, or an amount that does not exceed 10% of the text, that we're able to use those resources in the classroom to make sure that our kids have access to as wide a range of information as possible.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Do you think we need a more detailed definition in our own legislation to reflect the court decision?

[Zach Churchill]

We're not advocating for any changes to definitions in the Copyright Modernization Act enacted in 2012. We believe the case law has done that work for us.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Do you want to add something?

[Wanda Noel]

No.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

That's it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Mr. Longfield you have five minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for being here, both of you.

I want to build on where Mr. Bernier was going with some of those questions. We can see from the curve the dollar volume increasing, but there are several things that we don't see, such as how much is going towards copyright fees within those dollar numbers. Another way of saying that might be, what's the average unit price of the books and is that going up? But are we actually reimbursing authors through publishers, through distributors, and are we collecting the fees to go to the creators?