Evidence of meeting #76 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was casl.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Fekete  Partner, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual
Adam Kardash  Counsel, Interactive Advertising Bureau of Canada, As an Individual
Michael Geist  Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
David Messer  Vice-President, Policy, Information Technology Association of Canada
Deborah Evans  Associate Chief Privacy Officer, Rogers Communications Inc.

Noon

Counsel, Interactive Advertising Bureau of Canada, As an Individual

Adam Kardash

Mr. Geist's comments focus fundamentally, and correctly so, on bad actors. The issue we're raising is not with respect to bad actors. No one likes spam, certainly none of our members. We can speak about our client base. None of them like spam. It's extraordinarily costly for business. Bad actors should be appropriately punished. That's not the issue, which is what's fundamentally raised. We're talking about a legislative scheme that applies to all legitimate activity. That is a problem compounded not only by sheer scope but also by very complex prescriptive rules that, when you look at real life examples, don't make sense for small business.

We agree that if there's a bad actor, such as those spammers that are now gone from this country, the punishment they would get through a very focused private right of action or another remedy makes sense. What we're talking about and what our members are concerned about is the expansive scope of a legislative regime that applies to everything. Through a very complicated scenario, you're effectively playing Whac-A-Mole when trying to understand the legislative scheme, because it says everything is covered except for things that aren't.

Noon

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

That's where we differ. I still believe it's a privilege for you to send information, to use my cost to send that information, versus for me to request it. It would be similar to my walking into a store, and having a chance to pick up its flyer when I enter versus somebody forcing me to take it and me having to pay for that flyer as I enter the store. That's my view. If it is hard work, we can ask how we can make it better. However, I come from the basis that it is a privilege for you to be able to send me things when I haven't asked for them and they're unsolicited.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

We're over our time, and perhaps we can ask further questions.

We're going to move on to Mr. Baylis.

You have seven minutes.

October 17th, 2017 / 12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Ms. Evans, you gave an interesting suggestion about subsection 6(6), to reduce it to strictly commercial electronic messaging, and you gave the example of a notification for roaming. Theoretically, right now you have to have this full set of prescribed data inside of that to unsubscribe from the roaming message. Is that correct?

12:05 p.m.

Associate Chief Privacy Officer, Rogers Communications Inc.

Deborah Evans

That's correct.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

A number of people have brought up this point. I'll start with Mr. Fekete. You said a similar thing, that an update patch would also need to have an unsubscribe mechanism.

12:05 p.m.

Partner, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Michael Fekete

I didn't say that, but you're right. The rules prescribed by the CRTC indicate that in any request for consent, you must state that a person will have the opportunity to withdraw consent.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

If we were to implement the suggestion from Ms. Evans, which is that subsection 6(6) should apply only to commercial messaging and therefore an update or a patch would not be commercial messaging, would that address this issue?

12:05 p.m.

Partner, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Michael Fekete

Subsection 6(6) does not deal with a computer program. It deals exclusively with electronic messaging.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Okay. Go ahead.

12:05 p.m.

Associate Chief Privacy Officer, Rogers Communications Inc.

Deborah Evans

I can give you other examples: a safety recall message or a notification saying your bill is now available.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

If we were to start with subsection 6(6)—and that's if we were to tackle a number of things—that would address your updates and your roaming, but it doesn't tackle the computer software part, which is patches. We'll come to you in a minute, Mr. Messer. Obviously the legislation is not designed or was not intended to stop someone from having a patch or an update. You're saying it's too prescriptive. How would we deal with that in the legislation specifically?

12:05 p.m.

Partner, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Michael Fekete

I think we need to look at what our international trading partners do. They don't regulate all computer program installations. They regulate malware and spyware. There are unintended consequences of having an overly broad approach, and those are the consequences that I fear are undermining the innovation.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

So it's not the electronic messaging part but rather the part about tackling computer programming that is wrapping up and capturing your updates, and that needs to be targeted strictly to malware. Is that what you're saying?

12:05 p.m.

Partner, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Michael Fekete

Other jurisdictions regulate malware and spyware, as they should and as we need to, but they don't go and regulate all other messages. They certainly regulate collection of information, personal information using computer programs, as we have with PIPEDA and as we will continue to need to do. We go that much further than anybody else does.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

By going further, we're capturing things we don't actually want to capture.

12:05 p.m.

Partner, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Michael Fekete

A decision was made to regulate the installation of all computer programs except for those specifically exempted by regulation.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

And you'd like to turn it the other way around.

12:05 p.m.

Partner, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Michael Fekete

I'd turn it the other way around, and focus on the bad stuff.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Mr. Kardash, you mentioned administrative messaging. Would that be captured, either through section 6.6 or—

12:05 p.m.

Counsel, Interactive Advertising Bureau of Canada, As an Individual

Adam Kardash

Yes, section 6.6 is exactly what I was referring to.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

—with the administrative messaging. That would be captured if we were to implement something like what Ms. Evans is suggesting.

12:05 p.m.

Counsel, Interactive Advertising Bureau of Canada, As an Individual

Adam Kardash

Yes, expressly exclude the messages contemplated in section 6.6 from the definition of commercial electronic messages.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

That would capture that part.

12:05 p.m.

Counsel, Interactive Advertising Bureau of Canada, As an Individual