Industry Committee on May 20th, 2020

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you very much.

Madam Chair, could I give the remaining two minutes to Ms. Gray, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Yes, absolutely.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much, and thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Assistant Commissioner Slinn and Inspector Larocque. We know that COVID-19-related fraud calls and texts have become pervasive over the last few months in trying to defraud vulnerable Canadians, including seniors and new Canadians. We heard that from you today. At what point in this process would these calls be considered illegal?

[A/Commr Eric Slinn]

Because I'd probably talk too much, I'm going to pass the buck to Guy Paul.

[Insp Guy Paul Larocque]

Thank you, sir.

Typically, once an attempt is made to reach out to a potential victim, the line has been crossed. It's virtually impossible to investigate every single case that comes in because of the massive amounts. As we explained earlier, we have many reports of fraud, but it's about being able to look at the totality. That's the benefit of people reporting an incident to that call centre. We're then able to see an overview and disseminate information to the proper law enforcement body or the proper partners to assist us in moving forward.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

You've already mentioned today that fraud is up, so what's being reported to the RCMP and the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre? Would you have an estimate as to how many of these related calls might be from spoofed numbers? Do you have any estimation of that?

[Insp Guy Paul Larocque]

No, not on the spoof numbers specifically. I have numbers on COVID-related fraud, which we starting saving since the beginning of March, and they say that the vast majority of the complaints we got were linked to text messages. Calls were third in terms of being reported.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Okay. I understand—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Unfortunately, MP Gray, that is all the time for that round.

Our next round of questions goes to MP Erskine-Smith.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thanks very much.

I want to start with the Communications Security Establishment. Last week, U.S. intelligence suggested that organizations conducting research into COVID-19 may be targeted by computer hackers linked to the Chinese government. Do we have any evidence in Canada of that warning being a reality?

[Scott Jones]

We issued a joint statement with our colleagues at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service warning that Canadian organizations can expect to be targeted not only...but by different foreign actors as well. One of the things we really emphasize is the need to take proactive measures against any actor who could go after this type of activity or be interested in this type of information. I think it was actually the first time that we issued a joint statement with CSIS, and in that case, it was to bring attention to that.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

The warning there is about potential threats. Have any of those potential threats already been realized?

[Scott Jones]

Our goal is to really make sure we're getting information out so that people can protect themselves before it becomes an actual incident—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Have we not had an incident yet?

[Scott Jones]

We've seen some compromises in research organizations, which we've been helping to mitigate. We're still continuing to look through what the root cause of those is.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Do we have any evidence that any foreign actor has attempted a hack for COVID research?

[Scott Jones]

That's something that we'd have to look into and get back to you on. We really look to see how to block the activity before it becomes a compromise, regardless of who the actor is. We put our attention to anybody who is targeting these types of organizations, be they criminals, states or individual hackers from around the world.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

We have a warning from CSE and CSIS about the potential, it may have taken place and you're just not certain as of today.

[Scott Jones]

We continue to work with organizations, but one of the things that we don't do.... There's not a giant magnifying glass looking at Canada and the Internet activity. We don't direct our activities at Canadians, so we really do rely on a partnership and an engagement with colleagues in the private sector, in research and in other levels of government to really try to report this and put the picture together.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Have any of those private sector or public sector actors come to you and said they've had an incident and they'd like your help looking into it?

[Scott Jones]

We have worked with some private sector actors. Whether or not it's related to COVID or the research and development type of activity remains to be seen, but we've been working with private sector actors ongoing. It increases as more people become aware of what we can provide and what work we can do together. Certainly, as we get more information out there about what's—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

On COVID specifically, though, have institutions or organizations come to you and told you they've been subject to an incident related to COVID research?

[Scott Jones]

Yes, we've seen activity coming from organizations that have seen malicious, or at least suspicious, activity. We're working with them to determine whether or not it was malicious, where it came from and if it was successful.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Have there been any instances where you have been able to make a determination about the source of the hacking?

[Scott Jones]

We've turned that over to the intelligence side of the business to look at where it's coming from.