Industry Committee on July 6th, 2020

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay. Yes, I mean, again, going to those systemic changes, do you have any specific suggestions that would aid in that? It's great that we're having this conversation, but outside of this pandemic, I think because people have been forced to stay home if they're able to.... Maybe they're still working in their small town. They're not travelling abroad. Maybe right now they have potentially more to spend on food and those essentials. Outside of this, if life returns back to normal, we'll be faced with that challenge, especially when we have carbon taxes going up and different things like this that make transit more expensive and the cost of food more expensive.

What are the systemic changes that we're going to need? What are some really tangible things we can do that will help?

[Paul Meinema]

There's been talk for a long time in Canada about a living wage. I think that's a conversation that has to seriously, seriously get some legs. As well, a conversation on guaranteed minimum income needs some legs.

Going back to my comment earlier, there has to be a full discussion about what a worker in a store makes and what a CEO makes. There needs to be a full and robust discussion about the profits these stores make as compared with what the workers in these stores make. I don't think there's one quick fix. There needs to be a holistic approach that looks at the logistics of this form of retailing to provide a better and more stable income for not just the workers but also the communities you talked about.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

For sure. I guess the big issue, going back to the small-town model, is not that there's a CEO structure there. One person is the CEO, the owner, the front-line worker and the stock person. They're doing everything because the margins are just so small. That structure, per se, doesn't necessarily exist there, although in the context of talking about Loblaws and these bigger companies, yes, that for sure is an issue.

[Paul Meinema]

I would also suggest, though, that even the small retailers are buying groceries from a warehouse situation. They are perhaps getting advertising assistance as franchisees. There are very few completely independent grocery operators left in Canada. They are attached to a Loblaws, they are attached to a Sobeys, they are attached to a Metro, or they're attached to a Federated Co-op. That's where they buy their groceries. There still is a structure. There are very few stores left that are a true ma-and-pa operation, driving to the warehouse and buying and selling in the community.

Pardon me, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

It's okay. Thank you very much.

Our next round of questions goes to MP Erskine-Smith.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thanks very much.

To the UFCW, when the hero pay was first implemented in April, was the decision communicated to you before it was made public?

[Paul Meinema]

Yes, it was communicated to the UFCW before it was made public. We had conversations with all three of these employers about how to implement it and how to get it done. The conversation—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Did they tell you at that time why they were doing it? If so, what did they tell you?

[Paul Meinema]

Well, there were a few reasons. They were doing it to recognize that there was a situation in their stores and that there were some risks involved for workers who were in an unusual situation. There were some employment retention situations.

All of these things became a part of the process, and as I said earlier in my comments, UFCW worked with our international allies to find out the best practices in these situations. The COVID pay, the pandemic pay, was one of those issues.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Within a 24-hour period between June 11 and 12, Metro, Loblaws and Empire—which owns Sobeys—publicly announced that they were cancelling the pandemic pay on the 13th.

Was that communicated to you in advance as well?

[Paul Meinema]

I had a conversation with Loblaws with regard to ending the pandemic pay. They called to inform me that they were ending the pandemic pay. As I said, I was adamantly opposed to ending it.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

When did that call take place?

[Paul Meinema]

Shortly before that, Mr. Erskine-Smith. I'm sorry, I don't have the exact date in front of me, but it would have been within a couple of days of their making the announcement.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

The other stores didn't communicate with you at all.

[Paul Meinema]

I did not have any conversations with either Metro or Sobeys.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Who communicated the decision to you from Loblaws?

[Paul Meinema]

It was their head of human resources.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Could you confirm the date for the committee—I know you don't have it today—when you have the opportunity?

Mr. Dias, you mentioned that there are workers who are still on the front lines putting themselves at risk, and in fact there are members of your union who have recently had to leave work because they have COVID-19.

The purpose of the pandemic pay, as described to UFCW, was to compensate workers who were putting themselves at risk. Has that risk ended?

[Paul Meinema]

No.

[Jerry Dias]

We all know the answer to that question. The answer is no. The fact that two workers again just tested positive, as was announced today in Windsor, is proof positive. The argument is nonsense, and every one of us on this panel understands that. I will argue that they understand it as well. This had nothing to do with the pandemic somehow being over and seeing a pot at the end of the rainbow. This was a decision made about money, period.

We've had some earlier conversations about the impact of higher wages. The previous MP asked about the small community and the ma-and-pa shop. Look, you can't use the worst-case scenario and say that somehow it should be the litmus test for the industry.

Paul is right that there are very few ma-and-pa shops. The overwhelming majority of the grocery stores in urban and rural communities are owned by large players that are making money hand over fist. This is not an economic decision that was made on the pandemic pay as opposed to their bottom line, because we know they're making more money now than before the pandemic.

If the money was tied in to their ability to pay, then they should be paying $4 more an hour, because they're making more now than they did at the same time last year, so it's a nonsense argument.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I have a hypothetical question for you. Say I'm a multi-billionaire. I have maybe a family-owned business that generates millions of dollars for me. That business has earned record profits recently. I've publicly stated, though, that I believe in a progressive living wage. Do you think that hypothetical person would cut pandemic pay?

[Jerry Dias]

No, because you would think people would have some integrity. People would walk the talk.

Those who are in a situation to effect change and talk about it can't talk progressive on Monday and do the total opposite on Tuesday. To me, somebody who would do that is a hypocrite.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

My wife was recently on a virtual call with our doctor for a check-in for our six-month-old. The doctor noticed that this hearing was happening, and he said, “You know, these workers are front-line workers, just like I am.”

I'll close there. Thanks, all.

[Jerry Dias]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

To Mr. Meinema, if you could please forward the information that was requested by Mr. Erskine-Smith to the clerk, he will make sure it is circulated to the rest of the committee.