Evidence of meeting #87 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was privacy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Philippe Dufresne  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome to meeting No. 87 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, April 24, 2023, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C‑27, An Act to Enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act, the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other acts.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses today, who honour us with their presence and who are here to answer our questions.

Joining us from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada is Mr. Philippe Dufresne, Privacy Commissioner of Canada, whom I now welcome. We are also welcoming Ms. Lara Ives, Executive Director, Policy, Research and Parliamentary Affairs Directorate, as well as Michael Maguire, Director, Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, Compliance Directorate.

We are pleased to have you with us. Thank you for taking the time to appear before the committee. On behalf of our committee, I apologize for the slight delay today.

Without further ado, Mr. Dufresne, you have the floor for your opening remarks.

3:40 p.m.

Philippe Dufresne Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I am pleased to be here today to assist the committee in its study of Bill C‑27, the Digital Charter Implementation Act, which would enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act, the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act, and the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act.

I am accompanied by Michael Maguire, Director of PIPEDA Investigations, and Lara Ives, Executive Director, Policy, Research & Parliamentary Affairs.

I would like to begin by saying that I welcome the introduction of this bill. I view its introduction as an encouraging sign, as the act must be modernized to face challenges and to seize the opportunities presented by major technological advances, including artificial intelligence.

My office has long advocated for a modernization of both the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act and the Privacy Act, which applies to the public sector. Canadians expect modern privacy laws that will protect their fundamental right to privacy while supporting the public interest and innovation.

The bill addresses a number of concerns that were previously raised by my office and by others. For example, it requires that information used to obtain consent be in understandable language, it provides my office with order-making powers and it includes an expanded list of contraventions to which administrative monetary penalties may apply in cases of violations.

The introduction of the AIDA, the artificial intelligence and data act, could make Canada one of the first countries to regulate AI, which is important, given the technology's potential risks. Although the AIDA does not specifically address privacy risks, the CPPA, the consumer privacy protection act, would apply to the processing of personal information within AI systems.

Bill C-27 is a step in the right direction, but it can and must go further to protect the fundamental privacy rights of Canadians while supporting the public interest and innovation. I've tabled with the committee our written submission, setting out 15 key recommendations with the changes needed to improve and strengthen Bill C-27.

These are based on the three themes of my vision for privacy, which are, one, that privacy is a fundamental right; two, that privacy supports the public interest and innovation; and three, that privacy is an accelerator of Canadians' trust in their institutions and in their participation as digital citizens.

I will now highlight a few of our recommendations, but would invite committee members to also consult the full submission as well as our 15 recommendations.

Under the theme of privacy as a fundamental right, I recommend strengthening the preamble and purpose clause to explicitly recognize privacy as a fundamental right, and highlight the need to protect children's privacy and the best interest of the child, so that these important principles inform the interpretation of all aspects of the legislation. I understood from the minister's testimony earlier this week that the government agrees with this recommendation, and I'm delighted to hear it.

We also recommend that an organization's purposes for collecting, using or disclosing personal information be specific and explicit, and that penalties be available in cases where the personal information of Canadians is collected, used or disclosed for inappropriate purposes. Given the importance of the rules concerning appropriate purposes, effective remedies should be available to ensure compliance.

Under the theme of privacy in support of the public interest, we recommend that organizations be required to implement privacy by design and that privacy impact assessments be prepared in high-risk cases. This would be an important and necessary protection that would apply to high-impact AI systems. We also recommend that the definition of “de-identified information” be modified to include the risk of re-identification and that the government’s authority to issue certain regulations be more narrowly defined. On this last point, I would note that the bill currently gives the government the unduly broad ability to completely remove activities from the scope of the act and to allow new exceptions to the consent requirement for business activities without having to show that those activities are necessary.

We also recommend that Canadians be given the right to request an explanation when an AI system makes a prediction, recommendation, decision or profiling about them.

Under the theme of privacy as an accelerator of Canadians’ trust, and in order to ensure that most cases can be resolved quickly and without the need for lengthy legal processes, we recommend that my office have more flexibility in negotiating and enforcing compliance agreements and in co-operating and communicating with other regulators. Here again, the minister's testimony earlier this week suggests agreement with these points. It will be important to see the details of those proposals. This is important in many areas, but it will be crucial when dealing with AI and generative AI.

We also recommend that challenges to decisions of the proposed new data protection tribunal be brought directly to the Federal Court of Appeal in order to ensure timely and cost-effective resolutions for all parties. We note that as an alternative solution to achieve these goals, reviews of my office’s decisions could be done by the Federal Court instead of the tribunal.

In the last budget, the government proposed temporary funding for my office of $6 million over two years to undertake more in-depth investigations of privacy breaches and improve response rates to privacy complaints, as well as $15 million over five years—this would be temporary funding—to operationalize new processes required to implement the proposed Consumer Privacy Protection Act. Should Parliament adopt Bill C‑27, it will be essential that my office be properly resourced to fully and effectively take on important new responsibilities, especially those focusing on prevention. Otherwise, these costs will be borne by Canadians and by businesses themselves.

While our recommendations focus on the CPPA, some of them would also be relevant to AIDA. For instance, I note that AIDA provides significant authority to the government to define key aspects of the law by way of regulation. This would include, for example, determining what does and does not constitute justification to an otherwise discriminatory AI decision for the purposes of the definition of biased output. The government could also establish criteria through regulation for the purposes of defining a high-impact system or determining measures with respect to the way that data is anonymized and how that data can then be used and managed.

Given that all of these could potentially have privacy implications, it will be important to ensure that there is a formal mechanism for my office to be consulted in the drafting of these regulations. Our recommendation to allow for greater coordination and collaboration between my office and other regulators would also be essential in dealing with the privacy impacts of AI.

In conclusion, privacy law reform is overdue and must be achieved. Our recommendations aim to ensure that Canadians have privacy laws that recognize their fundamental right to privacy while allowing them to participate fully in the digital economy, support innovation and position Canada as a leader in this important and evolving area.

I note that many stakeholders are also putting forward submissions and I thank the committee in advance for the critical work that it will do in its review of this important bill and in ensuring the protection and promotion of the privacy of Canadians.

Thank you for your time. I would now be happy to answer any questions that you might have.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. Dufresne.

To start the discussion, I'll turn to Mr. Vis for six minutes. Mr. Vis, the floor is yours.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Dufresne, I want to thank you for your excellent work, including the 15 key recommendations that you put forward with respect to Bill C-27. For what I am about to do today, I apologize. I know your time is very valuable, but I am about to move a motion with respect to the testimony that was given by the minister at the last meeting. I am doing so because the minister indicated that he would be making amendments to the bill, but he wouldn't provide the committee with those specific amendments.

As such, I am going to move a motion right now, Mr. Chair. I move “That pursuant to Standing Order 108(1), the committee order the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry and his department to produce the amendments, briefing notes and memos referencing the amendments discussed by the minister in his opening remarks to the committee on September 26, 2023, provided that these documents be provided to the clerk of the committee within five business days.” I believe that was just sent to the clerk to be sent around.

I am tabling that because I believe the minister came forward in good faith with those changes, largely based on the recommendations from our witness here today, and I believe it is in the interest of Canada and all members of this committee to have that information before we proceed accordingly.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Vis.

Mr. Vis's motion is on the floor. I believe it's about to be sent around by email by the clerk.

I see Mr. Perkins and then Mr. Turnbull.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The minister made very specific reference to 10 amendments. He was very detailed in his description. He made reference to the fact, in conversations around the table, that they exist. That was not in testimony but in the conversations. I think it is an insult to this committee, which is going to embark on quite an extensive study of probably one of the most important bills we'll see, both from the privacy perspective and from the perspective of the artificial intelligence act, which some have claimed may be an existential threat to humanity.

We should have the amendments so that the testimony we are going to embark on in the next 13-plus meetings—it's at least 13—enables the witnesses to adequately assess the latest version of the bill that the minister intends to present to Parliament. I think it is a disservice to every witness who has spent over a year and a half considering this bill since it was tabled in Parliament to reference at this stage that he is amending the bill, going into the specific details—I can repeat from his speaking notes what he said—on those amendments, but then say, “Oh, no, they'll come during clause-by-clause study.”

That is unacceptable, because witnesses will adjust their testimony based on how the government intends to make sure that a fundamental right is in section 5—as mentioned in the Privacy Commissioner's brief, as well as his discussions on this bill elsewhere—and worded in such a way that it has teeth. We do not know that, because the minister wouldn't even say that this is where it would go when asked about it.

I believe it's incumbent upon us to have those amendments in order to have a very fruitful and knowledgeable discussion with witnesses over the next 13-plus meetings.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

Mr. Turnbull, you have the floor.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thanks, Chair.

Thanks to Mr. Dufresne and his team for being here today. I think you're an extremely valuable witnesses on this important piece of legislation.

I understand that, for whatever reason, people have got the wrong impression here. They think, for some reason, that because the minister has been listening to stakeholders and experts and has provided some ideas in his testimony about where there may be some amendments, somehow all of this is pre-empting the study, and that is not the case. That is not the intention.

I think it is about process, and we can have that debate, but today's time was dedicated to hearing from witnesses who have lot to offer this study, and I think we should hear from them today without further delay.

I would move to adjourn debate on this matter, and I hope we can return to it later.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

There's a motion to adjourn to debate, which calls for a vote without further ado.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I have a point of order.

I just want the record to know that I had my hand up and would have preferred to participate and that with the public rhetoric, I got shut down without even having a chance to offer comments, so thank you very much.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

However, as you know, the motion to adjourn debate stops it and calls for an immediate vote, so we'll proceed to the vote.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

The motion to adjourn debate is defeated, which brings us back to the matter at hand.

I recognize you, Mr. Masse.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it. I just want to make sure, because when you're attending virtually, sometimes you don't get seen. I know you're diligent on that.

I support this motion. It's been pretty interesting, what's taken place over the last number of hours. The minister has been actively lobbying me to move this bill as quickly as possible, and I do support that, but I also support a proper process. Mr. Dufresne and his team are very valuable pieces of what needs to be done even outside of Bill C-27, which is updating the Privacy Act in several different ways, and it's the same with the Competition Bureau.

I find it hard to accept that the minister sat across the table from us.... He talked about amendments. Government members even referred to them as amendments. I actually did a point of order, if you remember, Mr. Chair, with regard to whether they were ideas or amendments. We know that right now they're just ideas that were presented in front of the committee, despite having over a year. I'm glad that we had the context of them, and some of the stuff that was floated about is important, but I don't know how it's reasonable to expect people to come in front of us in this speculative process that we have, when the minister says he is actually going to fix his bill, which he already acknowledged is flawed and has errors. We discussed that in the House of Commons and now we have come here. This committee also passed a request to the witnesses coming forward on whether they could bring amendments to us as well so that we could properly vet them and also share them with other presenters so that people could look at those things.

How do you start something so important and so critical with only a speculative process? I know that right now I would have a motion to bring back the Privacy Commissioner's team after we know exactly what is there.

There's also the process of respect that Mr. Perkins mentioned. The minister sat right there, and then the next day went out to the public and provided new information that he didn't provide to us as members of Parliament. He went to basically a public event and disclosed new information that he wasn't willing to provide to his own committee the day before. It's pretty hard to accept that and also to be responsible for one of the most important pieces of legislation.

I would point out that some of the groups coming forth will be from the not-for-profit sector or the private sector. They actually have to use time, resources and in some cases money to draft their amendments into a legal form and context to present them to us. They also sit there, in front of the world, with their reputations on the line over what they present to us, and it's a mockery to them when they don't even know exactly what they're presenting to.

I can't believe that we're proceeding in such a way and that the government doesn't have the amendments to table in front of us so that we can also make sure that they'll be in a context that will be accepted within the bill. I spoke at the last meeting about how the government had amendments to my legislation. The government brought them forth, theminister himself, and then the Liberals not only did that but also ruled them out of order themselves.

We don't know exactly where this is going, but I'd like to have the proper context of how we're going to analyze the bill. I think it's bad, when we have our guests in front of us, that we have to go on the fly about what the minister may or may not have and whether he's serious on all the points that were raised. Are they actually going to be ones that will be collectively put together? I don't know. What's the point of our spending resources, time and energy and then treating our guests so poorly? They have to come here and wing it in terms of what theminister and the government have as legislation.

To wrap up, we know two things. One, there's a high degree of interest in this bill. It's very technical. Part of it is new. The second thing we know is that when we invite people to come in front of us, we know that the bill right now is critically flawed. It's had one debate in the House already, and it's our job to fix it. The minister has indicated that it needs fixing, but we don't know what parts they're supportive of or not supportive of. That's unfortunate. Again, I've been open to trying to move this legislation along as quickly as possible, but I'm not going to be part of a broken process from the very beginning.

That's just unfortunate, because I think we all want to move on this.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. Masse.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Our parliamentary system is obviously based on trust and respect between parliamentarians, particularly in the context of a minority government. However, I can't consider last Tuesday's exercise to be a model of trust and respect, particularly with regard to these aspects, especially in a context where we're being told about the urgency of passing Bill C‑27 and bringing ourselves in line with European law, specifically with regard to data protection.

This is a bill that was tabled in June 2022, I remind you, that the government only addressed three or four times in the House over one year, last year. We can't claim it's because the legislative agenda was particularly heavy last year.

So I find it worrying that the government is pressuring us and, on top of that, pulling these amendments out of its hat as though they were a done deal upon which we were to rely. If only that were all. We learned through the media—and not through parliamentary collegiality, since the minister was not transparent with his fellow MPs—that there would be a voluntary code of conduct pending legislation. In my opinion, a voluntary code of conduct, given what we are to debate, is the opposite of the highest industry standards. By not announcing this news to his colleagues before it reached the media, the minister has not been transparent.

Of course, in front of industry, it might be a fine show and elicit applause, but the minister is accountable to parliamentarians. I cannot understand why he didn't tell us the day before, on Tuesday. It's another element that adds to the context in which we feel that the bill we will be debating is now obsolete, for obvious reasons. ChatGPT didn't previously exist. Technology has evolved. They talk about fundamental principles, saying that the law they want to replace is over 25 years old, and that Facebook and the iPhone didn't exist back then. Where is Facebook, or Meta, now? These are the people who have taken control of our democracy, who prevent our local media from functioning and who laugh at Canada's Parliament and parliamentarians. They boast about legislation that lasted so long, when it has actually caused major setbacks.

So it seems rather irresponsible to allow things to continue in this manner. We began this study on the wrong footing, and I think there needs to be more transparency and collegiality. Not only will we be asking people for about fifteen meetings to react and draw on their expertise to tell us about the repercussions, but companies also need predictability, and we don't know what we'll be debating.

I therefore urge that we obtain these documents as quickly as possible, and even make them public, because we need to be able to do our job. Right now, however, we're not equipped to do so.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

Mr. Vis, you have the floor.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is as per our briefing note: “During his opening remarks, [the minister] announced that the government would be proposing amendments...that would, among other things, recognize the right to privacy as a fundamental human right, increase protection afforded to children's personal information—”

4 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

That's normal. They are—

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Mr. Drouin, you don't have the floor. If you wish to speak, just let us know.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

“—provide the Commissioner with greater flexibility to enter compliance agreements with companies that fail to comply with privacy legislation, and implement a broader right to data mobility.”

As my colleague Mr. Lemire mentioned, these are massive changes to this bill. They are also very consequential with respect to children. When we had the minister here the other day, if we'd had more time, then my line of questioning would have been focused on ensuring that our shared objective of protecting children from online threats is, first and foremost, a priority on this legislation.

I move this motion today because if we start this bill on the wrong footing, then we are doing a disservice to all of the Canadians who are asking us to be really mindful of some very serious issues. What bothers parents the most? It's what their kids are seeing on their iPads. That's one of the biggest concerns of any parent with young kids.

I'm glad the minister is moving in the direction that he is, but it disturbs me that he couldn't just send us a copy of the amendments in good faith. Nobody around this table disagrees that we have to do more for our kids to protect them from online threats.

I really hope that we can have a vote on this motion pretty soon. The minister can provide this in good faith. With the legal team we have here at Parliament, it doesn't take long for any of us to draft that material into proposed amendments and get them on the record so that we can work in good faith to get these things done.

I've been around this place for a long time. I have never seen a minister do what he did this week. It is contrary to the precedent established in our standing orders, which is that we hear witnesses and debate among colleagues in a collegial format at the committee stage of a bill. Then, if we have amendments in the meantime, we table them for the public and other committee members to see, based on the witness testimony that is coming in droves from across Canada on this legislation.

We don't disagree with the intention of the minister. The official opposition is asking in good faith that he just put it forward so that we can give respect to the hundreds of people we have literally invited here to appear over this fall session. Then we can do something positive to update legislation that all of us agree needs a lot of attention from our Parliament.

I will note that in the haste of writing what I did, I wrote three days instead of five in the French version. It's meant to be five days.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Vis, for the clarification.

Mr. Généreux is next.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses.

I'll be brief, as I feel that our witnesses' expertise is extremely important.

Three days ago, 45 experts in the fields of artificial intelligence and everything to do with privacy signed an open letter in La Presse. I imagine these 45 experts are among the 300 experts and organizations the minister met with before drafting his bill and its amendments. They asked that the bill be split in two, because they consider it an important bill and a voluminous one. In their view, the committee will never have enough time to study all the elements related to these two very different and very important aspects of the bill.

Moreover, I asked the minister about his amendments and where he stood on them, but, between you and me, it's as if he jotted them down on a napkin while speaking to us. I can't understand that we're about to study a bill that was tabled a year and a half ago and that, even though he only met with people and experts from across Canada over the past summer, the minister still hasn't tabled his amendments.

I have enormous respect for Mr. Dufresne, who is here today. I would have liked to ask him about the amendments the government plans to table in connection with the bill. But we're going to ask him about a bill that won't be the same. That's true for him, but it's also true for all witnesses who will be appearing here. It makes no sense. I'll stop there, because I'm going to get angry.

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

Next is Mr. Perkins.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to reread into the record part of the minister's opening statement. It's actually very condescending: “I want to put on the table specifically what our government will propose to improve the bill.”

It's his own bill. He says, “These are the amendments that we are proposing to the bill and I would enjoy my colleagues to pay attention, in particular to that section of what I will be saying.” For a member of Parliament to be sitting here with a minister at the opening of one of perhaps the most important bills in this Parliament, it's very condescending for the minister to say, “Please pay attention, because I have something important to say. I'm going to amend the bill.” He then refuses to amend it.

In the effort to speed this up, I would like to propose a subamendment to this amendment by adding, at the end of the motion, where it says “within five business days”, an additional sentence. It is, “That the committee pause its study of Bill C-27 until the minister produces the amendments discussed and referred to in his opening remarks.”

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

I have Mr. Gaheer.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

Thank you, Chair—