Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on July 20th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Now we have Ms. McPherson, for five minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you for all the questions, everyone.

I'm sorry to cut you off there.

I have a couple of questions. One is for Dr. Zenz, and it goes back to western corporate involvement in supply chains.

Could you comment a little bit on the role that the Canadian government could play in terms of ensuring that our Canadian corporations or international corporations have due diligence in satisfying...that their supply chains are not using forced labour? I think we know there are over 80 multinationals that are implicated in this. I'm just wondering if you could comment a little bit on that, please.

[Adrian Zenz]

I think the first possibility is in public awareness. If governments issue supply chain warnings, as was done by the United Kingdom and the United States when both governments issued specific supply chain warnings to their companies or to companies in general, that has a big impact. I feel that is one thing that governments absolutely must do. They must raise awareness and name things by their name.

The second aspect is legal. In the United States, the CBP can block shipments that are even suspected of forced labour. The burden of proof is on the importing company. In the United Kingdom, there is an anti-slavery act that can be used. That's being challenged. The government can be sued to enforce it, although it really has not been very keen to actually enforce it.

I'm not aware of the legal situation in Canada, but I believe any legal possibilities should absolutely be exploited. If they do not exist, I think it would be high time to consider relevant legislation and to introduce relevant legislation that does target forced labour in the supply chains of companies that do business in Canada.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

We do have a corporate ombudsperson, but they do not have the teeth they need to have in order to do the job appropriately. Maybe that's something we could look at.

Dr. Jazexhi, I have a quick question about when you were in China. You were in Xinjiang, looking and observing. One tool that we could use would be to promote further observation missions through the United Nations. We could be asking for this, and pushing for this.

Can you talk about whether or not you think that would be an appropriate next step for Canada to take?

[Dr. Olsi Jazexhi]

Yes, that would be a very appropriate step for Canada. However, the observers, if China will accept them, should be very demanding and should not allow the Chinese to determine their agenda. I know many diplomats and journalists who were sent to Xinjiang. They had guided tours. When they came back, they reported nothing. That's because of what the Chinese do with foreigners. They send them to big factories and to big megaprojects that they have. They send them to Uighur families who are instructed beforehand what to say. During the whole time, they are with government minders.

These observations mean nothing. We should send real observation teams to investigate, without allowing the Chinese to interrupt them and to determine their agenda.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

I have one more minute and one very quick question for Dr. Mahmut.

We talked a little bit about the Uighurs in Canada who are suffering from intimidation and possible surveillance. Do you feel the Canadian government has done enough to protect that diaspora community in Canada?

[Dr. Raziya Mahmut]

As of now, I haven't seen any specific legislation that has come out relevant to protecting Uighurs. Yes, we were having phone calls before; now it's nothing. Everything is cut out. We always fear that we're under Chinese embassy surveillance. We feel that. We worry. When we have some stuff like advocacy, always the embassy shows up from somewhere. This is intimidating.

I haven't seen specific legislation that has come out to protect us. It should be a next step, yes, one more step to have, I don't know, human rights protection for Uighurs in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

This will take us to our final round. Each party will have five minutes.

We'll start with Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to pick up on some of the things we heard today from all of you.

Professor Kovalio, in your testimony you talked a little bit about the history and the official reasoning behind why China is persecuting the Uighur community. On the ground, within the Uighur community in China, I understand that there are some Uighurs who would like greater autonomy within China. There are others who would like to have autonomy or to separate from China. Can you delve into that a little bit? The Chinese response to that has been the accusation of terrorism or religious extremism.

Perhaps you could go into that a little bit, Professor Kovalio, and then I want to hear from Dr. Mahmut on the same question.

Thank you.

[Jacob Kovalio]

That's a good point. Thank you for the question.

There is a significant worsening of the situation across the board, particularly when it comes, in this context, to the Uighur situation—as well as the Tibetan situation, by the way. Exactly what he did in Tibet—and I'm talking about Chen Quanguo—was to squeeze Tibetans and their economy wishes and import some of those same methods into Xinjiang. That is why, as I was mentioning earlier, he was sanctioned last week by the American Congress.

In general, the kind of state that Xi Jinping has been trying to build in China since December 2012 has involved forcing upon non-Han Chinese whatever form of Han Chinese-like identity he can. That, of course, technically would start with the language. That is why there is pressure, constant pressure, regarding instruction in a variety of ways, not only in schools but also by bringing Han Chinese into Uighur families so that those Han Chinese can train their families, if you will, in the Chinese language, and of course in Chinese nationalism, which has become extremely strong again since December 2012. The same kind of policy can be seen in Tibet as well.

When we talk about the difference between Uighur tradition and Chinese tradition, this is something we cannot overlook, and it is very fundamental. When we talk about a very significant aboriginal group like the Uighurs, who are monotheistic, and the Chinese tradition, which is not only non-monotheistic but one in which religion has always been—at least for 2,000 years, if you will, in the context of Confucianism, which is not a religion—totally subservient to the state, there's a clash of values, for want of a better word, that comes to the fore every single time and that is going to make for a very significant difficulty going forward in trying to find some more humane modus vivendi, if you will, between the Chinese Xi Jinping regime and the Uighur aboriginal population of Xinjiang.

I'm not considering the future in very positive terms, not at all.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Dr. Mahmut, can you please comment?

[Dr. Raziya Mahmut]

I totally agree with Dr. Kovalio's statement. Also, I grew up there and I witnessed everything. There are mountains of examples I could bring here, but with the time it's not possible. However, the autonomy we have had for a long time is on paper; it's nothing in reality. It's not real. This atrocity is not a one- or two-day thing; it's a long, long, long slow-motion genocide.

China's government wants our land and our resources. Anything different from Han Chinese, a different culture, is looked at as a threat to the country. I do not have a positive outlook that we will have a democratic autonomous region or something like that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Dr. Mahmut.

We move now to Mr. Genuis for five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to try to share some of my time with Mr. Sweet.

It might seem a bit off, but I think it's an important point. I think it's worth underlining that Confucianism doesn't in any way inevitably point towards the kind of system that exists in China. South Korea and Taiwan are deeply influenced by Confucianism. Authoritarian leaders want to misuse Confucian ideas about filial piety, but they ignore the injunctions to rulers to be benevolent and the requirement for that as being very much embedded in Confucian philosophy. I think that's important for countering some of the propaganda narratives we get from the PRC on Chinese culture and Confucianism.

I want to follow up on Ms. McPherson's points about supply chains and ask Mr. Zenz if he has thoughts on the Uighur forced labour prevention act out of the United States, and whether this provides a good model.

Also, I wonder if anyone wants to give some further feedback on the issue of engaging with Muslim countries. It seems to me that we have to make a distinction between the leaders of Muslim-majority countries and the peoples of those countries, because the leaders of those countries have, unfortunately in many cases, chosen to look the other way, and in some cases have even been complicit in promoting anti-Muslim narratives in other countries, perhaps as a way to justify their own domestic oppression. I think we could play a big role in trying to engage civil society leaders in Muslim-majority countries and build coalitions, not exclusively at the government level but at the civil society level, to push these issues forward. Is that something that Canada or other countries in the west could play a leadership role in?

So, on those two points, supply chains and engaging civil society in Muslim-majority countries, I'd appreciate hearing from Mr. Zenz and anyone else who wants to weigh in.

[Adrian Zenz]

I think the forced labour prevention act, which I consider very highly, is a very effective piece of proposed legislation. First, it creates the rebuttable presumption that all goods manufactured in Xinjiang are made through forced labour. That's appropriate, not because all goods literally are, but because it's impossible to tell, as it's such a widespread policy, and therefore creating this rebuttable presumption is a very appropriate thing to do.

It further specifies that it requires an investigation into how coercive labour is spreading beyond Xinjiang into other parts of China, along the mutual pairing assistance program. I'd highly recommend that other countries look into this. The Uighur forced labour prevention act is very strongly built on my research findings and it's very robust. It's very good.

Did you want me to comment on the second point?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's okay, unless you want to.

Does anyone want to comment on that second point in particular?

[Dr. Olsi Jazexhi]

Yes, if I may.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

That's great.

[Dr. Olsi Jazexhi]

To your question about what Canada should do, your point on engaging civil society in Muslim countries is very good. As we know, many Muslim countries lack democracy. On the other hand, we have Muslim countries that practise democracy, from Indonesia to Malaysia and Turkey. There you have a huge debate on the Uighur issue, especially when it comes to Turkey. We should think how we can build bridges with many democratic Muslim countries around the world, and even to engage civil society in other countries, because civil society can be a very powerful voice to pressure governments to stand up and say something.

I will add one point, if I may. From my observations from my visit to Xinjiang, I have to tell you that China is very worried about the Muslims, because it perceives the Muslim world as its backyard, as its space of Chinese imperialism, so if the Muslim world stands up, then China is going to change its behaviour.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Can I throw it to Mr. Sweet for a minute?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have about 20 seconds.

We're going to move to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe for five minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Mahmut, does the COVID-19 crisis complicate your work? Do you think that the Chinese government will take advantage of this situation to accelerate the cultural genocide against the Uyghurs?

[Dr. Raziya Mahmut]

The Chinese government is indeed taking advantage of the COVID-19 crisis. Evidence already published indicates that the majority of companies in China have a labour shortage because of COVID-19. Uyghurs are being sent to front-line companies to replace Chinese workers in China.

Many factories have closed, but forced labour in our region continues. The Uyghurs are still working. This means that the Chinese government took advantage of the fact that other Chinese could not work because of COVID-19 to replace them with Uyghurs.

I should add that we do not know what happened with COVID-19. I feel there are a lot of sick people there, but the information is very controlled. The government sent a huge number of people to replace Chinese people, either in the Chinese interior or in remote areas.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Mahmut.

Mr. Zenz, in your report, you say that “Beijing undercounts the true number of Uyghurs in Xinjiang by as many as 8–10 million” because a great number “were born in evasion of family planning policies.” In addition, population counts are said to have become less rigorous in recent years.

Can you explain why the population counts in Xinjiang are less rigorous than in the past?

[Adrian Zenz]

The argument I make in my research is that the Uighur population figures of most recent dates are probably accurate. They have been catching up. In some years, they've added quite a few to the Uighur population.

The Uighur population growth was one of the highest in China. A lot were born in violation of birth control policies; therefore, there was a significant Uighur population that was not recorded, and there was no record on them. This was a big issue in the eyes of the government. I believe that's one of the main reasons they're engaging in this demographic genocide, birth prevention, to have a tighter control of the population. You see sudden spikes in population in Uighur regions.

I think the most recent figures of the Uighur population are quite accurate, and they reflect a dramatic decline in their population growth.