Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on July 20th, 2020

[Adrian Zenz]

I will concisely start.

The new information we have is, as you mentioned, that China shows definitely that these camps exist and are run like prisons, and they're not just benign vocational training.

Second, we have more data from the ground as to the percentage. In some areas, up to 28% of all Uighurs, especially males, are being interned in Uighur regions. We have more systematic policy evidence that documents of the Chinese government prove that these camps are designed to wash brains, a literal quote from Chinese documents. We have evidence that forced labour is a systematic government policy on different levels, both pertaining to the internment camps and to all males or adults in society. We have new evidence on parent-child separation as a systematic practice and policy and now most recently evidence of demographic genocide and sterilization.

We have a huge body of new evidence.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'll just pick up on that point.

You mentioned there's a huge body of evidence that has established that there are leaks from the Chinese Community Party that allow us to independently verify this. It's not simply anecdotal information as it was before.

We know that the Convention on the Prevention of Genocide and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which was of December 9, 1948, commonly known as the Genocide Convention, in article II(d) says, “In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”. It gives a number of examples: “Killing of members of the group”, “Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group”. It continues on to section (d), which is “prevent births within the group”. Section (e) is about “Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

Given what I've just mentioned, which is the convention on genocide, of which both China and Canada are signatories, and given what you just mentioned, Dr. Zenz, around the new information we have for the Ph.D.s and professors, do you feel now that we can say with confidence that what we are seeing in front of us meets the definition of genocide according to the convention?

[Adrian Zenz]

In my opinion, it meets the definition of genocide specifically on preventing births, and partially and to an extent on some of the other ones such as mental harm and parent-child separation. The intention is to break and assimilate the Uighurs. In this sense, I do not believe that this is a genocide like the Nazi genocide of literally trying to obliterate the ethnic group in whole, but it's designed to destroy the ethnic group in part in terms of identity and even population size.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have 30 seconds.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you. I'll leave that time for others to comment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We'll move to—

[Dr. Raziya Mahmut]

The genocide definition is one simple example. In the Holocaust, hair was shaved and used as wig products. This was in the Holocaust. It's the same right now. It's only one simple example.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We now move to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe, for five minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kilgour, we have not yet had a chance to ask you questions.

Earlier, we talked about the countries that have imposed sanctions on China for what is happening in Xinjiang. Are you aware whether that has had an effect on the relations between China and those countries?

[David Kilgour]

First, I must make a comment on what has been said. I imagine that all the members have seen what happened in Auschwitz. You can see hair on display in the museums there. As Ms. Mahmut just said, it is really horrible. There are 13 tonnes of Uyghur hair.

[Dr. Raziya Mahmut]

It was hair products, including wigs.

[David Kilgour]

In short, I have learned a lot about the issue you raised.

Our export deficit to China is now $40 billion. How many of your constituents are unemployed because of it?

The Americans and the Europeans have eliminated a lot of jobs. I hope Mr. Zenz and the other witnesses will talk about that as well. For example, in the United States, thousands of factories are closed because of China.

Perhaps Mr. Zenz could comment on that.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Zenz, can you answer the question I asked Mr. Kilgour?

It is about the countries that have imposed sanctions on China because of what is happening on their territory. What effect has this had on their relations with China?

[Adrian Zenz]

On the United States imposing sanctions...? I'm not particularly aware of this.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Kilgour, I will continue with you.

We are talking about the Magnitsky sanctions. I think most people here agree that this should be done quickly.

What other steps would also be appropriate regarding China's disturbing practices toward Falun Dafa practitioners?

[David Kilgour]

I didn't quite understand your question.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

What can we do? What impact can we have quickly and in the short term?

[David Kilgour]

We have applied the Magnitsky act to people in Venezuela and many other countries, but we haven't, oddly enough, applied it to a single person in China. As a result of what we have been talking about today, it seems that we have no right to apply the Magnitsky act to people in the criminal regime in China. That is completely odd.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I would like to continue with Mr. Kovalio, with whom I have not had the opportunity to speak.

Can you cite situations from history right up to this day that are similar to what is currently happening in Xinjiang?

[Jacob Kovalio]

I would say almost instantly that the policies of Xi Jinping in particular—in other words since December 2012—remind us of the Sovietization and Russianization policies of Stalin, who of course moved the Tatars from Crimea, for example, to about three other places throughout the then Soviet Union.

I would also like to bring up a point of Dr. Jazexhi. If I mispronounce your name, sir, I apologize, because the substance of your point is extremely important. There is the 57-nation-strong Organization of the Islamic Conference. Where is the reaction of those many entities, particularly the three that I mentioned in the context of my historical interpretation of the renewed access, in other words Turkey, Iran and of course Pakistan, which has been very close to China for many decades? That is something that really has to be brought to the fore.

In addition to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, there were other points being made or asked—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We'll now move to Ms. Vandenbeld for five minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you to my colleagues for some very good questions today.

I would like to go back to something that was said earlier.

China is obviously trying very hard to make sure the international community is not necessarily seeing what's happening. There was talk of the staging—I think Mr. Zenz called it “guided tours”—but also the communications, and preventing communications from Xinjiang to the rest of the world.

Does this indicate that the pressure from the international community does shift Chinese policy and does impact China?

[Adrian Zenz]

To an extent, yes. There has been a campaign. China is concerned about its image, perhaps even more so among belt-and-road countries. China, I think, is now looking even more to secure its status and image in belt-and-road countries. It is especially careful not to alienate Muslim countries, because it knows that Muslim populations could quite significantly turn against China, which would be a real problem.

However, I think the impact has been a bit cosmetic. There has been no real policy change. I would have to give a very sober assessment of the real-world impact of western attention on Xinjiang, in Xinjiang itself. In my opinion, a much stronger prospect to actually change the situation on the ground is through focusing on forced labour and the ethics of forced labour.

Earlier, I mentioned that western companies are not as implicated; I meant that in respect to the police state and the security technology. Western companies are implicated in terms of their supply chain, especially in textiles, and to an extent in other products. This is also special because Uighur labour is being shifted to other provinces and is used in other factories, in other parts of China. I think that focusing on forced labour and the ethics of forced labour, on consumer awareness, is a very important avenue.

The second really important avenue is the Muslim countries. As was mentioned before, the OIC, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, on a high level has been co-opted by China. It has been bought by China, so to speak, so increasing awareness in the general population of these Muslim countries, finding a way.... And, of course, if countries like Canada impose sanctions and do big things that get in the news, that could be very helpful.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

I'll go to the other witnesses, if I could.

Mr. Jazexhi.

[Dr. Olsi Jazexhi]

Yes, thank you.

I just wanted to respond to your question and to Jacob when he asked, where are the OIC, Turkey, Iran and Pakistan?

There is something that we are not doing right when it comes to the question of Xinjiang and the Uighurs. Number one is that the United States has taken the lead. We have to know that in Muslim countries the United States doesn't have a very good image. What China is doing now is trying to portray this as a kind of imperialist intervention in its internal affairs.

What we should do as Canadians is help Muslim countries and civil society organizations speak up about what is going on with the Uighurs. As I mentioned before, these people are Muslims, after all, and there is a great level of sensitivity in the Muslim world. We have seen protests and articles from Bosnia to Indonesia. But what China does, in a very smart way, is corrupt the leaders of many of these countries. It gives them weapons, high tech and technology, and tells them, “Look, things are fine in Xinjiang. We are doing nothing to the Uighurs, but the Americans are lying.” The thing is that we're not very smart about approaching the Islamic countries and telling them to stand up.

You have to know something, after all. After coming out of Xinjiang, I wrote an article with the title “What can the Muslim world do to save the Uighurs and Islam in China?” One week later, the Chinese ambassador in Ankara responded to me that I was attacking them, the Communist Party of China. They claimed that I was a liar. I responded to the Chinese ambassador in Ankara. I told him that I have facts; I have videos.

You have to know something: The Chinese are much more worried that the Muslim world would stand up against them, because this is where it will hurt them—