Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on July 20th, 2020

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

For those Uighurs who are outside of Canada, you cited a number. You said 2,380 Uighurs are in real danger of facing deportation back to China. We heard this morning that there are about 30,000 Uighurs around the world, outside of Xinjiang. Where is this 2,380 number coming from?

[Mehmet Tohti]

That is 2,380 families, the families in dire need. Yes, there are maybe 30,000 or 40,000. There is no clear statistic on this; I don't know the exact number. In November 2017, our organization sent two Canadians to Turkey just to interview and talk with people about their problems. Most of the children born in Turkey became stateless because the Chinese government did not offer them any identity papers. The Turkish government just gave them a birth certificate. The Turkish government did not give them any identity documents, so they became stateless, born in stateless status.

For Uighur families, these 2,380 vulnerable families, the husbands are in concentration camps or have disappeared. Mothers, single mothers, are left without any support. The UNHCR office closed. There is no place to apply for protection. There's an immigration office in Turkey, under the jurisdiction of the interior ministry. It is not like the impartial authority we have in Canada, the Immigration and Refugee Board. So then they apply to this Turkish immigration office. It is up to the political parties to evaluate the relationship between China and their own interests. If there is some loan agreement or any financial interest, they easily deny the application. When the application is denied, they have to be deported back. For that reason, Uighurs cannot apply for Turkish immigration, and there is no UNHCR office. If you remember, in 2018, I raised this issue before this committee.

At least our Prime Minister's father brought nearly 3,000 Tibetans in the 1970s. Those Tibetans became very good Canadians. In these circumstances, why can we not help those vulnerable Uighurs? Altogether, across Canada, we have maybe 1,500 to 2,000 Uighur Canadians, including children.

The Chinese government banned our language, history, everything. This population is not sustainable to keep our culture. You are talking about thousands of years of culture. Western countries became the only venue for us to preserve our culture, teach our language and keep our culture for the next generation; otherwise, China will totally erase them. In this regard, Canada should help bring in those 2,300 Uighur families.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll just use my last 30 seconds for Dr. Turpie to weigh in on this.

I know you've done a lot of work on this, too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Dr. Turpie, you have about 20 seconds.

[Dr. Irene Turpie]

What can I say to improve upon what Mehmet has said?

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Monsieur Simard for seven minutes.

Welcome.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to thank you, Mr. Tohti and Ms. Turpie.

You are doing essential work. We must inform civil society of the unacceptable situations being experienced by the Uyghurs. That is the key. If we want to change this situation, we must constantly keep civil society informed. I do not think we hear enough about what is happening. In particular, you talked about sterilization and organ harvesting. This is particularly striking in its infamy.

Mr. Tohti, I was also very touched by your story. You said you were the target of threats. Earlier, you talked about this hostage diplomacy that has developed over the past 10 years.

I would like to know if this state of affairs is at all documented. In your opinion, what could the Canadian government do to help improve this situation, at the very least, or to provide you with some support?

[Mehmet Tohti]

One thing I have to emphasize here is that the last visit I made to Ottawa was my 117th visit in 20 years. I have spoken with government officials at Global Affairs and all high-level officials. On January 17, for example, I gave to the sanctions division of Global Affairs the list of Chinese officials to be sanctioned. On March 9, I spent nearly an hour and a half with Minister Champagne during a luncheon on China-Canada and an evaluation meeting on the Canada-China relationship. I told all horrible stories. On December 11, 2018, I chatted briefly with the Honourable Chrystia Freeland. I frequently speak with Omar Alghabra. He's in my riding, my neighbourhood, and when I wrote a letter to him, he said he conveyed the message to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

There's no excuse that politicians in Canada do not know about this. They know all about this. I am proof of that. I personally spoke to them and personally raised this issue. But even if you speak a thousand times, if they do not want to listen, or if they do not want to take action....

I am simply one Canadian. I have only one vote. I am a taxpayer. Take especially the $180 million for the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, the bank that funds the Chinese government's imperial dream for expansionism. Why should my tax dollars fund Chinese expansionism and the suffering of Uighurs today just because of the Chinese belt and road initiative? My tax dollars support the Chinese persecution of my own people.

As I mentioned, I have raised this case more than anyone else in Canada, on my own time and at my own expense. Just for a half-hour meeting, I travelled 10 hours to Ottawa. Honestly, I don't know what else we can do. We've testified at Parliament. This is my fourth testimony in this Parliament. We've raised this issue. There is a record.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Tohti, if I understand you correctly, economic imperatives sometimes lead us to turn a blind eye to the atrocities that you have thoroughly condemned.

Often, in order to tip the balance, we have to alert public opinion, which succeeds in influencing public decision-makers and forces them to take action. Do you feel that you have sufficient support to inform the public of the atrocities that are currently being committed against the Uyghurs?

[Mehmet Tohti]

Thank you.

There are frequent media reports on the atrocities against Uighurs. I think the majority of Canadians already know what is going on there. Probably it is part of the genetic code of all Canadians: We are not that politically active. Because there are so many atrocities taking place around the world, one after the other, we cannot catch up.

Also, many Canadians don't grasp the danger that the Chinese Communist Party poses to our future, to future generations. Many politicians in the rest of the world have just recently woken up and confessed that they have been naive. If politicians full of information have been naive, we cannot blame Canadians.

Now the information is flowing, and this testimony in this committee is important. We have to give much greater tasks to our government with our policy proposals. Government should lead with action.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Throughout our history in Canada, we have learned to recognize what cultural genocide is. The term is particularly used to capture the unjust way in which indigenous people have been treated.

According to the information you are sharing with us, can we say that this is no longer a cultural genocide, but a genocide plain and simple, with a slightly different objective? It is not a question of measuring the atrocities, but it seems to me that, if we were able to designate this situation as a genocide plain and simple, perhaps there would be greater resonance among decision-makers.

Do you share that view?

[Mehmet Tohti]

I totally agree. There's no adjective needed to describe it. There's no “cultural” or “demographic”; it is genocide, period.

[Dr. Irene Turpie]

I would second that. I don't think we need any more evidence to call this “genocide”. I think we Canadians should be very sensitive to what has been happening to the Uighur people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Now we're moving to Ms. McPherson, for seven minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

In the testimony we've heard from all of our witnesses, including the two we have today, the underlying thing I'm seeing is this frustration that there has been such a slow acknowledgement, a lack of movement, a lack of action on behalf of the Canadian government, and I guess I could say on behalf of the international community.

I want to dive into a few different things. I thought that maybe I would start with you, Dr. Turpie. You talked a little bit about organ harvesting. Of course, we know that this is a horrendous affront to human rights. We know that the Chinese government has done widespread collection of DNA data and other personal information. Can you confirm, or assume I guess, that the gathering of this data is for organ-harvesting purposes?

[Dr. Irene Turpie]

I can't confirm that it is only for organ-harvesting purposes, but if you have the DNA makeup of prisoners in a re-education centre, what would you normally use that for? Certainly I know they use it for tracing and they use it for following people. I believe that it is also used for organ harvesting.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

If I can follow up on that, do you feel that the impacts of that have increased, or accelerated, during the COVID-19 crisis, not necessarily the organ harvesting, but the Chinese government using COVID-19 as cover to continue to accelerate its attack on the Uighur people?

[Dr. Irene Turpie]

I honestly don't know. I heard a little bit about that this morning. I know there are concerns about the spread of the COVID-19 virus in these detention centres. Certainly if people are being forced to work in areas where they don't have protection, that is not what one would call in the best interests of those people.

Does that answer your question?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It does.

What I was looking at more was the use of the pandemic to give China that space to amplify or to accelerate its attacks on Uighur people because there isn't the same capacity for oversight within the international community at this time. We're all very focused on our own communities.

[Dr. Irene Turpie]

That might be the case. I have not seen any information to that end. I don't know if Mehmet has. I just know that forced organ harvesting is an affront to any human right that I know of, and we should do everything we can to stop it.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Of course.

I'd like comments from both of you on this next question. In terms of the Canadian response to Uighurs who are seeking asylum, particularly during the pandemic, what would be the key things you'd like the Canadian government to do in terms of making sure that we are providing as much support for asylum seekers as we can, particularly knowing the challenges that we have within global travel at the moment?

[Mehmet Tohti]

I personally prefer to follow the procedure and the law. It is quite clear.

I raised the issue of Uighurs because it is a very special situation. Uighur refugees are making claims here, and they are leaving their relatives or spouses and children behind in some insecure countries. Those spouses are facing the danger of repatriation to China at any time. For that reason, not only is the reunification of family a better option for them, but at the same time it is important to secure their safety. Now, because of COVID-19, everything is postponed and it is a lengthy period. This is one dimension I want to emphasize.

Second, I've participated in a number of hearings. It is heartbreaking. People are in tears and in pain, recalling the atrocities that their family members and they personally have gone through. Why are we compelling those people to repeat this pain and horror in front of an interpreter and adjudicator? The whole world knows what's going on. The whole world knows that China's government is targeting all Uighurs indiscriminately.

Sweden declared it would accept all Uighurs as refugees as long as they prove their identity as Uighur. Why don't we follow the example of Sweden and at least give those people some comfort?

[Dr. Irene Turpie]

I don't really think that the COVID pandemic should stop that. I think that people can be quarantined where they come from and they can be quarantined when they come here to Canada. Apart from the bureaucratic problems, I don't think there should be any problem in bringing in refugees.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay.

In particular, when you talk about the children who have been born and are now stateless, can I assume that you would see Canada playing an important role in ensuring that those children are given state status in Canada?