Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 1st, 2025

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

Thank you for your personal courage. We respect the ordeal that you have gone through to come to Canada, for those of you who migrated here.

We are focusing today on Uganda, but South Sudan and Kenya have both been mentioned. In a brief period of time, can you elaborate on what's happening in these two countries?

Paul, maybe you could start, and we could turn it over to the legal experts also if they want to add something.

Paul, do you want to share a bit about that?

[Paul Kanyamu]

As I said, most of the LGBTQIA+ refugees we are discussing today are from Uganda. A big percentage are from Uganda. The reason why South Sudan and Kenya are appearing in this talk is that when they leave Uganda, they go to refugee camps in South Sudan and Kenya. There is that migration of LGBTQIA+ persons who have left their countries or Uganda and they go to Kenya and South Sudan because they can't be refugees in their own countries. That's why we're talking about them.

The situation there, as I've said, is bad because they're getting attacked every day. The police are checking people's phones, by the way. If they find you with any LGBTQIA+ stuff in your phone, you either sleep at the police barracks and go back home the next day after you've been beaten.... There are forced examinations, despite the fact that they are registered and allowed in that country. The police still check and say, “No, it's a sovereign country. We don't allow homosexuality here. Take your habit anywhere else.”

In Kenya, I was accused of being an agent of COVID-19. They said that LGBTQIA+ persons are agents of COVID-19. They said, “It's you people creating problems for us in the world. You are gay and you are bringing COVID-19 and other issues.” That's how it is in these camps.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

You mentioned that the people who are supposed to be protecting society are not doing their job. We've heard a lot about police, but what about other humanitarian workers? Are you finding that's also the case for other humanitarian workers?

[Paul Kanyamu]

Other humanitarian workers are trying to do their jobs. I can say that. I can give them credit for that, like for case assessments and other stuff. However, yes, you go to some other organizations and they are like, “No, you're gay. We help refugees, but not specifically gay people. Do you mind changing from being gay to straight? How about if you change your case from being LGBTQIA+ to another case, so that you can get resettled?” They can't resettle you, because you're gay. They do that under cover to save their face, of course, as an organization. As an international NGO, they're not supposed to discriminate, of course. They'll maybe face the.... These other organizations are trying, though they're not doing the needful. They're not doing much because they have that element of “these people are gay”. They quote the Bible. They say, “No, in the Bible, it says this and that, so please, you need to change.” They are going to give us hope, but we need to change from this to this.

Then, with the police, it's direct confrontation with LGBTQIA+ persons. They don't fear. They do it openly in front of UNHCR because the police are part of government and are sovereign in that place. They say, “No, we don't allow LGBTQIA+ persons here.” If you register any case as an LGBTQIA+ person, the case will not be followed up at all.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Ms. Al-Khatib, I know you wanted to share something in your opening remarks. In the time that I have left, if you have anything that you want to add, I want to give that time to you right now.

[Rabab Al-Khatib]

Actually, I'll add a little bit on the situation of the camps, if I may.

To Paul's point, what we know through the queer forced displacement initiative consultation—for which the last round table happened in Kenya, actually, and where LGBTQI+ refugees from Uganda were present around the table—is that with the problem of documentation or being undocumented, some people cannot get registered for more than 10 years. If we look at what this means, it means no right to work. This means they need to live under the radar, in addition to all of what Paul has also mentioned. We know it and we saw it.

If this means anything, this means that there is a possibility that people are also being pushed into sex work to survive, for example, or being exploited just because they are part of the LGBTQI+ community.

All of this is to say, finding protection pathways and finding resettlement pathways for LGBTQI+ people from Uganda, be it in Kenya or South Sudan, is really a matter of life or death for those people over there.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Zuberi.

Now I invite Madame Kronis to take the floor for five minutes, please.

[Tamara Kronis, Conservative, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much.

I really want to thank both the representatives from Rainbow Railroad and Paul for the testimony they've provided so far.

What I'd actually like to do with this round is turn back to Mr. Opiyo in Uganda.

One of the reasons I was asking about the numbers is that in the short term and in the emergency situation, we can help bring people out and help rescue people, but in the long term something has to change in Uganda. I wanted to ask a little bit more about that longer-term question.

The appeal is ongoing in the Supreme Court of Uganda. Is there a sense of when the decision is going to come out? If it's positive, will it make a difference? I know there are lawmakers in Uganda who are trying to make change. We're actually hoping to have some of them come to this committee. How are they doing? Are they having an impact? What are the barriers to making change legally and in civil society in Uganda?

It's a big question, but I'm hoping you might be able to tackle it and, if possible, solve all the problems within five minutes.

[Nicholas Opiyo]

Well, thank you very much.

The Ugandan courts are not known for being expeditious in the way they dispose of cases. They are very slow. We had hoped that the Ugandan Supreme Court would have heard us by now and rendered a decision before the elections, but that is now unlikely. That situation is now being complicated further by the impending retirement of the chief justice on January 18. We do not think that the court is going to hear us any time soon. We don't have a timeline. It is difficult to guess when the courts might even hear the case.

Second, on the government side, the attorney general has not submitted his pleadings to the Supreme Court. The petitioners who have appealed this case have complied with all the directions that the court has given them, but the attorney general has not prioritized this case and has not responded to the submissions that have been filed by the groups that went to court. We have no idea when this case will be heard and a judgment rendered.

In any case, I am not optimistic that we shall get a positive judgment. If the recent trends are anything to go by, evangelical groups have infiltrated the court, so much so that decisions coming from that court now reflect more dogma than legal positions. Nonetheless, we will fight on, hoping that the court can hear us.

Now, what can make a difference long-term? I don't think the nullification of the law will make a big difference. It will no doubt provide reprieve and some sort of ease for many people, but what remains an ever-present threat is the radicalized population. Anti-LGBTI sentiments run very deep in our society, from the lowest level to the highest level. Just two months ago, university students were trying to lynch their own colleagues on suspicion of being gay. In a high school in western Uganda, the same thing happened. The long-term focus has to be on changing narratives and has to target, in my view, the youngest population in our country, because it's going to take a generational effort for this debate to take a turn.

[Tamara Kronis, Conservative, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Along that line, in the few seconds I have left, because time is getting short.... The picture you're painting is quite dire. There is no relief coming from the law. There is a society that is quite entrenched in terms of anti-LGBTQI+ values. Are there allies? Where is the hope? Young people are always the hope. What is the landscape like for allies?

[Nicholas Opiyo]

We have begun to see parents of LGBTI folks coming out to advocate for their own children. It is difficult to argue against a mother who says, “That is my child. I love them the way they are. That is how they were born. That is who they are.” Therefore, groups like mothers of LGBTI kids need to be supported because they provide new perspectives, and that is difficult to argue against.

We have begun to see industries, such as the creative industry.... The creative industry is the largest employer of LGBTI folks in Uganda, people who are in the arts, people who are doing work in salons. We have to amplify that kind of industry and make sure they continue doing what they are doing.

Lastly—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Can you wrap it up, please? The time is exceeded.

[Nicholas Opiyo]

Yes.

Lastly, I think there is also a growing community of local NGOs, or non-profit organizations, many of which include preachers and groups like DefendDefenders, which are not LGBTI groups but work with the community. These groups give me hope that, over time, we shall make a movement and overcome the challenges we have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Opiyo, I'm going to follow the line of questioning of Ms. Kronis, who just asked you a question.

In your view, how can the international community, including Canada, provide help in a tangible way to legal stakeholders, such as yourself, who are working in Uganda?

[Nicholas Opiyo]

I think Hassan mentioned the need to provide increased support to frontline organizations that are working to promote the rights of LGBTI folks. Those groups come under attack as well, and require attention and your support as well. This support may not necessarily be resources. It could also be platforming them, giving them a voice and space to share their experiences, working as allies. When other allies see allies being supported, they get encouraged and will be able to join the cause.

The second one is that we have to use multinational institutions, such as the World Bank, where Canada has some sort of support, voice and access, because these multinational institutions have proven to be, in many cases, very helpful. UNAIDS in Uganda has been one of the most important allies to the community and to the allies of the community, and so, in working with international institutions, we can amplify their role and make them more active.

Lastly, if I may say, Canada and other countries in the global west have accountability mechanisms. Target, with visa bans, individuals who are promoting anti-LGBTI sentiments in Uganda, so that they know there are consequences to promoting homophobia, hatred and transphobia against the LGBTI community. Now, target the individuals but not the country—smart, targeted sanctions against these individuals. Deny them access to your country, your visas. That has to be a point you make because, in diplomacy, a posture is as important as the actual action you might want to take. Take the posture that you reject this, and do not entertain people who are promoting anti-LGBTI sentiment in Uganda: Sanction them.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

We could even go as far as implementing economic sanctions against certain individuals by targeting their assets, which may have been moved abroad.

Mr. Shire, in your opening remarks, you talked, among other things, about the fact that the U.S. government has decided to slash the U.S. International Development Agency, or USAID. It's a global phenomenon right now. We're seeing this in a number of European countries and in Japan, which has radically cut its funding for international assistance. Unfortunately, here in Canada, the federal government announced in its budget two or three weeks ago that it planned to cut $2.7 billion from the international assistance budget.

Given that Canada's presence in Africa has been decreasing over time, shouldn't we in fact strengthen our presence in Africa and increase international assistance instead of following this global trend? Given what is happening with our American neighbours and the rest of Europe, shouldn't we increase international assistance and be more present in East Africa, among other places?

[Hassan Shire]

Thank you, Monsieur Duceppe.

Exactly—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

We have a maximum of one minute, please.

Go ahead.

[Hassan Shire]

There is a global recession.

I am also Canadian, Mr. Chair, so equally, I am entitled to speak like other panellists.

The global recession of financial support for non-governmental and international human rights institutions has been widespread. It's not only in the U.S.A., but also in other countries. Because of the security challenges they are facing from the war in Ukraine and other places, they start building up their own armaments. The victim all the time is foreign development aid.

Canada can take leadership in advocating a revamp of that line and bringing like-minded governments—mostly the Nordic and other countries—to support initiatives that are impacting the socio-economic life of the communities. We cannot pretend to be able to bring all LGBTI people to Canada, but where they are, they must be supported to support their families and themselves.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

You're welcome at the committee, but when we give you time, you have to respect the time also, please. I'm sorry.

Madame Dhillon, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll start with Mr. Opiyo.

You were speaking a lot about how it's more dogma than law that's presented in court. You say that the law would provide a reprieve, but there is the ever-present threat of radicalized violence by civilians. Can you tell us a little bit more? It seems that ever since this law was passed, the violence has increased. It's very extreme. Do those who take the law into their own hands against members of the LGBTQ community face consequences?

[Nicholas Opiyo]

I have yet to come across a case in which a person who has attacked or perpetuated violence against the LGBTI community is held to account.

In many cases where violations have been reported, the authorities have shown no interest in investigating the violations reported, but oftentimes stand around to investigate the LGBTI individual who is reporting a violation against themselves. Organizations have been attacked and set on fire. There's not been any report about the arsons in the offices of LGBTI organizations.

It seems that there is a blank cheque. There are no consequences for violations against LGBTI individuals, much less even a commitment on the part of the authorities to investigate. You can't even argue that this does not amount to tacit approval of these unlawful actions on the part of individuals.

I have done cases where parents have had their daughters raped in the hope that once they are raped, they can abandon being lesbian. These parents face no consequences. For doctors who are doing forced anal exams, there are no consequences for them from the medical association, from the state or from anybody.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

They're being emboldened when no action is taken against them. They're not only taking the law into their own hands, but committing violence against fellow citizens.

You mentioned that this can happen just on suspicion of someone being part of the LGBTQ community—just on suspicion. Can you talk to us about that, please?

[Nicholas Opiyo]

In the two cases that I cited, one was at the oldest university in the country, in a male residence. Two individuals who were sharing a room were suspected by their fellow colleagues of being involved in same-sex conduct. One evening, the students organized, sounded alarms and descended upon these two individuals in an act to try to lynch them. They're lucky they were not lynched, because they ran away and found safety elsewhere.

In a secondary school in western Uganda, called Ntare School, the same thing happened. These two young boys were never caught in any sexual intercourse. They were merely suspected of being involved in same-sex conduct, perhaps because they were close to each other or they were holding hands. Students in this secondary school did the same thing: In the night, they pulled them out of their dormitory and tried to lynch them. They ran into the dark. These attacks have never been investigated.

It's just the appearance of being gay. In some cases, you have been mentioned in a tabloid newspaper. The tabloid newspapers are notorious for outing individuals. Once you're mentioned there, it can easily attract violence.

In my own case, I've lost count of the times people have attacked me for being a lawyer for the LGBTI community. People have walked up to me and spat in my face when I was doing my grocery shopping and accused me of being an agent of foreigners and promoting foreign interests.

You don't have to be found in same-sex conduct; just being suspected can have dire consequences. It is worse for trans individuals. They face the harshest response from society. Most of the cases of evictions and cases of more violence have been against trans individuals. Because of the way they dress and because of the transition they have gone through—people have known you as a man and you have now transitioned into a woman or vice versa—these individuals face the harshest attacks in our society.