International Trade Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I think that would be helpful. Amnesty has taken a known position on trade, whether good or bad. If there was a trade agreement, what would Amnesty like to see in the legislation? I realize we don't have it before us.

[Alex Neve]

In our view, it would be advisable to ensure that there's an ongoing human rights evaluation. You have the impact assessment at the outset. You highlight the concerns and address them. But that doesn't mean we're home free. It will be important for there to be regular and ongoing monitoring of how the trade deal is playing out in practice. We will need to know that emergent concerns will be addressed.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you. That's been very helpful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you. That was good timing. Well done, gentlemen.

Mr. Holder is next. You have five minutes for questions and answers.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'd like to welcome Mr. Neve, our guest. This is the first time that I've had the privilege to sit with you and to hear your comments.

I was going to take my question down a certain road, but I was struck by Mr. Silva's comments. They have forced me to rethink a bit of this today, and it has to do with probably the greatest issue facing Colombia, and I would think all third world countries. My wife comes from a third world country; it wasn't always a third world country, Rhodesia or Zimbabwe, but it's become almost worse than a third world country now, I can tell you, for various reasons.

It's the issue of poverty. I want to dwell on that a little bit. I've read and you've commented, I think twice today, that Amnesty International does not take a position on trade issues relating to countries. I'm not so sure you shouldn't, quite frankly. As you've noted, we're already in trade with Colombia, so as a very quick question, I'm trying to understand how a poor Colombian is somehow disadvantaged by virtue of having a rules-based system.

I get the comments you made about human rights, and I think there are some very significant issues relating to that country, but I'm trying to get an understanding from you of how Colombians are disadvantaged by having a rules-based system in trade. How would that hurt them?

[Alex Neve]

If the rules-based system means there's going to be increased, and perhaps even dramatically increased, interest in the lands of that poor indigenous woman, for instance, because it's considered to be rich in mineral wealth, then recycled paramilitary groups or FARC guerrilla groups, eager to maintain control of that territory and benefit from further development of it, are going to chase her and her people from the land. They will threaten them, attack them, and kill them. There's no rising above that poverty in that context.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

You would imagine, though, I would think, that if someone had a greater standard of living, somehow that would improve their human rights circumstances. As a broad general comment, is that fair?

[Alex Neve]

As a broad general comment, but if you're being chased and threatened and not allowed to live in your lands, then you don't have the benefit--

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Respectfully, that wasn't my question. I think you answered the first part, and it's helpful.

I'm trying to understand. You've talked about surveys and studies that you've done, but have you ever prepared an economic impact statement on the positive aspects of an advanced economy on human rights? Have you taken that from the positive perspective?

[Alex Neve]

We highlight that all the time. We're not economists, so we don't have the expertise that gets into those kinds of numbers, but we have always highlighted that good trade, responsible trade, can be good for human rights. Bad trade, irresponsible trade, or trade that is simply blind or neutral to potential human rights consequences can be very bad for human rights.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

That's fair, and it's good to have economists who would from time to time be able to review some of these things. I'm glad you say that, because we had the privilege earlier this week of having two, I would say, diverse views. They were from Mr. Rosero and from an economist, Mr. Mejía, who came and made representations to us.

You made a comment and gave yourself a thoughtful pat on the back as being one of those impartial and expert sources in relation to human rights activities, and I acknowledge that. You spoke on the importance of that. From the standpoint of impartial or expert or credible sources, would you deem the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights to be a credible source?

[Alex Neve]

Absolutely. The work that the United Nations has done in Colombia for many years is reputable and it's important. One thing that is positive in Colombia is that the Colombian government has agreed to have that presence in the country for so many years.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Then would it surprise you to know that in fact the former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights said there was, and I quote, “no reason” why the Canada-Colombia free trade agreement should not be supported? You may not be aware of that, but I'll just share it with you.

[Alex Neve]

Are you referring to Louise Arbour when you say the former High Commissioner--

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I believe that was Ms. Arbour, and I will confirm that, but I would say to you that the comments made at that time from the UN Commissioner for Human Rights were deemed to be very credible.

[Alex Neve]

I'd be very curious to know the wider context in which that statement was made.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I'd be happy to provide that for you. I think that would be interesting. You give us things, and I'd be happy to provide that in return.

Here's a separate question: would you consider the International Labour Organization, the ILO, to be very credible?

[Alex Neve]

Yes, generally.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Would it surprise you to know, then, that during the 98th session of the ILO's International Labour Conference in June 2009, the Conference Committee on the Application of Standards expressed appreciation for, and I'll quote:

...the positive steps taken by the Government of Colombia to combat violence and impunity, expedite the union registration process, and transfer the government's authority to determine the validity of strikes to the judicial system.

You may not know that quote, but I thought I would share it with you.

Finally, do you consider the Escuela Nacional Sindical to be a credible source?

[Alex Neve]

I don't know that much about them. I've heard of them. I would have expert colleagues within Amnesty who could offer a view on that, if that's something you would like to know Amnesty's views on.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

It may be useful—

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, sir. That's seven minutes.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Monsieur Guimond.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am happy to see that my colleague, Mr. Holder, is interested in conducting possible studies. But, in our view, it is not up to Amnesty International to carry out those studies, but rather the government. With respect to that, I want to say right off the bat that the issue was already discussed by the committee in June 2009 and a report was produced. One recommendation is clear: the government should carry out impact assessments with respect to human rights. I want to mention that the Liberals were in favour of that recommendation. So it had majority support.

As recently as Tuesday, at this same table, we heard from Daniel Mejia, an Economics Professor and Researcher at Los Andes University in Bogotá. His finding was very clear: murders of union members in Colombia had steadily declined over the last eight years. Do you agree with that finding?