Evidence of meeting #5 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was europe.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jerry Dias  National President, Unifor
Patrick McGuinness  President, Fisheries Council of Canada
Angelo DiCaro  National Representative, Research Department, Unifor
Jean-Guy Vincent  Chair, Canadian Pork Council
Jayson Myers  President and Chief Executive Officer, National Office, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
Martin Rice  Executive Director, Canadian Pork Council

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I call the meeting to order.

I want to thank our committee and the witnesses for being here.

We are continuing our study on the Canada–European Union comprehensive economic and trade agreement. This is a very exciting agreement.

I want to remind the committee that we will be travelling to Halifax next week and having hearings there.

Before we get into the meeting and before I introduce the two witnesses we will have in this hour, there is a little bit of committee business. It is more of a clarification from the round of questioning in the order paper.

We have a motion in front of us, which I will let Mr. Davies introduce.

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yes, I have introduced a motion, more of a clarification actually. It reflects the agreement made between the parties about the order of questioning. When we made our agreement before, the way it was written up last time didn't actually reflect the way we wanted it to work. This motion actually does, so I move the motion.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Very good. I call the question.

(Motion agreed to)

We now move to our witnesses. We have with us from Unifor, Mr. Jerry Dias, national president, and with you is Mr. DiCaro.

The floor is yours for 10 minutes, sir.

8:45 a.m.

Jerry Dias National President, Unifor

Good morning, Mr. Chair, members of the committee.

Unifor represents more than 300,000 workers in nearly every sector of the Canadian economy. Unifor is also Canada's largest union in the private sector. With me is Angelo DiCaro, a national representative in our research department.

Let me first thank you for inviting us to share our thoughts on the proposed comprehensive economic and trade agreement.

Our union has been following these trade negotiations, to the best of our ability, since talks began in 2009. We've been critical of the deal on a number of fronts. Specifically, we've been critical of the way this deal has been negotiated, without the full and meaningful participation of trade unions, environmental NGOs, and other groups in Canada's civil society. The CETA is unlike any trade deal we've seen before, yet public concern raised by workers and others has been marginalized and largely dismissed. This has created a climate of unhealthy debate on a deal that touches so many areas of public life.

The CETA goes far beyond border tariffs. In fact, it impacts areas of public policy, procurement policy, foreign ownership policy, and local governance that have been off-limits in foreign trade deals we've signed in the past. It grants extraordinary rights to European corporations and it's the first bilateral trade agreement that binds our provinces, territories, and municipalities. That means local governments face new limits on purchasing services, setting regional development policies, building schools, hospitals, transit systems, and other matters.

For those reasons, and others I'll touch on, the CETA raises significant concern. I want to be clear. We believe that enhanced trade with Europe can be a good thing for Canada. We've said that all along. We also believe that in free trade deals like this, there will be positive outcomes for some industries and there will be cause for concern in others. The key issue in our view is to figure out how the CETA balances the two, then determine if that balance is in the best interests of Canadians.

I'll be frank. We haven't seen the full negotiating text of the deal. No one has. Because of that it's impossible to fully assess the impact this deal could have on Unifor members, and on Canadian workers more generally.

We appreciate the information that the government has circulated so far, but it doesn't provide an objective look at the deal. It is a slanted look at all of the supposed benefits of the deal. It's more like an advertising campaign than a genuine policy discussion, and that's simply not sufficient. It is irresponsible for any government to overstate the positives and downplay the negatives. Canadians don't automatically benefit simply because we've signed a trade deal, so I hope a full text of the deal will be made available to review as soon as possible.

Unifor represents workers in many sectors of the economy that are in the crosshairs of this deal. Not surprisingly, our members have important questions and concerns, as I do. I want to first say a few words about how this proposed trade deal could impact Canada's auto industry, which is an important sector both for our union and for Canada's whole economy. On auto trade Canada starts from, let's say, an unfavourable position with the EU. In 2012, we imported $5.6 billion worth of automotive products from the EU, the highest ever. Most of that was in finished vehicles.

EU auto imports have more than doubled since 1999. European automakers have increased their market share in Canada faster than any other group of producers over this period. The same year we exported only $269 million worth of auto products, mostly auto parts. Our exports to the EU have declined by half since 1999. If we add up all the damage, that's an enormous trade deficit of over $5 billion. The auto trade deficit alone accounts for close to half of our overall merchandise trade deficit with the EU. And so far this year that imbalance has gotten even worse. Auto exports to the EU are down by 16% compared to the year prior. We've imported 22 times as many auto products from Europe as we have exported there. That's the biggest imbalance of our bilateral auto trade ever.

Let's be honest about a few things related to the Canadian and European auto sectors. First, European car companies sell mostly high-end luxury vehicles here. These are produced at plants in Europe that service the global market. The cars we send to Europe are built for a North American market. They are bigger cars. They are muscle cars. They will never be more than a niche product for a European consumer.

If you understand those dynamics you'll then understand that tariffs have very little to do with the current trade imbalance. The imbalance reflects deeper structural factors in our industry. It also reflects a 15% run-up in the Canadian dollar against the Euro. The fragile European market is also a cause for concern.

The more we import, and the less we export, the weaker our industry becomes. The CETA will not change that. In fact, we think the CETA will make this bad trade situation with Europe even worse. Again, I haven't seen the deal, but I understand negotiators eased the rules that define a “Canadian-made” car.

The move makes sense, given how integrated the North American market is. It also makes sense because Canada is one auto-producing nation negotiating with a large block of auto-producing nations. Under these terms we'll be able to sell cars to Europe tariff-free that are 20% Canadian-made, but the sales limit is capped at 100,000 vehicles. Some have misunderstood this to mean Canada is going to sell 100,000 vehicles to Europe under the CETA. That is completely untrue. Currently, we sell a few thousand cars each year to Europe. If we are lucky, under the CETA, we'll sell 10,000. Our negotiators could have put that number at one million cars, it wouldn't have made a difference.

Will the CETA spell the end of the world for our auto industry? Of course not. But it will mean more lost sales and ultimately more lost jobs. No one I speak with in the industry thinks Canada's auto industry will be a net winner from this deal. The only question is how bad the damage will be.

It's not just the auto sector that concerns us. We've got a trade imbalance on wood products with the European Union; we import ten times the amount of furniture from Europe as we sell there. It's not to our advantage to simply sell Europe barely processed wood and ship back expensive furniture. The expected jump in drug prices will put additional strain on our health care sector. This is a sector already faced with chronic understaffing. Stripping governments of their ability to set buy-local purchasing policies limits the growth potential for our important mass transit sector. The list goes on. I encourage you to read our submission for a fuller brief on our various sector concerns.

Our economist at Unifor, Jim Stanford, predicted that the CETA could cost Canada another 150,000 manufacturing jobs. This is a worst-case scenario he's presented based on many factors, but even in the best-case scenario, tens of thousands of jobs are on the chopping block. Why such a hit on manufacturing? It's because we mostly sell Europe raw materials and they mostly sell us high-value manufactured goods. We have a nearly $30 billion manufacturing trade deficit with Europe and that deficit will likely expand, not shrink, under a free trade pact. Our union doesn't believe this is an attractive or strategic position for Canada's economy. We don't believe that a heavier reliance on resource extraction and resource export is how strong economies are built. Canadians must have the ability to balance our industrial development to enhance our capacity to manufacture value-added goods.

Instead it appears in the CETA we're negotiating away our ability to strike that balance. We're granting private European investors and corporations the right to challenge democratic policy decisions made by our national and sub-national governments if they feel these decisions infringe on their rights to profit. What about the rights of workers to decent jobs? What about the rights of citizens to democratic decision-making? As we see it, the CETA and the process in which it was negotiated doesn't seem to account for the interests of all civil society. It accounts only for a select few. I am encouraged that this committee is taking the opportunity to discuss the proposed trade deal, and once again I thank the committee for the opportunity to share our views.

In closing, I urge the committee to recommend that the federal government release the full text of the deal as soon as possible. I urge the committee to recommend that the CETA can only be ratified should the House of Commons and each provincial and territorial parliament vote in favour of it. Finally, I recommend that the CETA agreement remove the provisions for investor-state dispute settlement courts, and strengthening drug patent laws. These provisions have nothing to do with freer trade. They arbitrarily strengthen corporate powers in a way that will cost Canadians and their governments billions of dollars in the future.

I put these three recommendations to you for further consideration.

I want to thank you again for the opportunity to speak and we are free to answer any questions you have.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Before we get to question and answer, and I'm sure you've promoted a few, we'll move to the Fisheries Council of Canada. We have Patrick McGuinness.

The floor is yours, sir.

8:55 a.m.

Patrick McGuinness President, Fisheries Council of Canada

Thank you very much.

First of all, let me just say that the Fisheries Council of Canada fully supports the CETA. Our organization represents companies throughout Canada, from British Columbia to Nunavut. Our main supporters are vertically integrated companies. Those are companies that own their harvesting vessels, own their processing plants, and participate in marketing throughout the world. But at the same time we're also proud that the main fishermen's cooperatives in New Brunswick, Newfoundland, and Labrador are members of our council.

The CETA is a game-changer for several Canadian fisheries, most notably Atlantic Canada's shrimp sector, particularly cooked and peeled shrimp; lobster processing, which would have significant positive spillover effects for live lobsters; our herring sector; and our mackerel sector. The positive impact on the British Columbia groundfish and salmon sectors, and the Northwest Territories and prairie walleye and pickerel sectors creates new marketing opportunities for these sectors.

Ladies and gentlemen, reducing tariffs of 15% to 20%, to 0% in the world's largest seafood market will enable the Canadian fishing industry to put its market diversification strategy into full gear. Our objective as an industry in Canada is to reduce our dependence on the U.S. market, and I can report our industry has been successful in opening new markets in China and Russia in recent years. Now our strategy can focus on penetrating the EU market.

While the EU seafood market has grown substantially in recent years, as it has expanded to 28 countries and is now the largest seafood market in the world, Canadian seafood exports to the EU have not. In fact, in the period 2005 to 2012 our exports in terms of value to the EU dropped 28%. Export values to the U.S. have remained stable, but we have had significant growth in our sales to China and Russia. Our sales to China have increased by 38% and to Russia by 250%. China is now our second-largest export market, with Russia number four just behind the EU.

High tariffs in the EU have forced our industry to focus on emerging markets. When we talk about emerging markets we're talking primarily about markets where we see a growing middle class, we see new upscale restaurants being put in place, and we see countries, if you will, that have a fairly good per capita seafood consumption. We have been looking at countries such as China and Russia, but also South Korea and Thailand. The issue is that China and Russia are lucrative markets for us, but they're risky markets. Market access is not assured. Often we have abrupt impediments and closures to the market. The WTO and Codex rules and standards are making inroads into China and Russia, but it's slow. Right now, we are in confrontation, if you will, with Russia in terms of actions they have been taking with respect to our cold-water shell-on shrimp. And here it is just basically out of the blue.

The bottom line is we would like to see more involvement in terms of our diversification—we're doing a good job in Russia; we're doing a good job in China—but we want to get into the EU market. We want to build those partnerships, and we want to expand in that marketplace, and the CETA will do that for us.

The CETA is of particular significance to the cooked and peeled shrimp industries in Newfoundland, Labrador, New Brunswick, Quebec, and Nova Scotia. The market for that product is mainly in the U.K., Denmark, and Sweden. The tariff rate is 20%. Our access to that market is totally dependent on the EU unilaterally establishing low or zero tariff quotas to allow our products into the market for further processing in the EU. That's a major industry in terms of Newfoundland and Labrador, and that's basically the constraint they have in terms of expanding that market.

In recent years, for getting agreement, we would have to meet with the Danish processing association, the Swedish processing association, and the U.K. processing association to try to come together with mutually beneficial tariff quotas.

That has been relatively easy. Well, I shouldn't say “easy”, but it has been relatively straightforward in recent years as shrimp peeling and processing in the EU has declined. However, times are changing. What we see now in terms of the EU and Poland, Bulgaria, and Estonia is that they are establishing peeling plants themselves.

The current arrangement ends in 2015. We can see that we would have difficulty continuing that type of arrangement going forward. The CETA takes care of that. Basically, what the CETA does is get our cooked and peeled sector out of the dysfunctional EU autonomous import quota regime. This is a regime that is particularly difficult for our Newfoundland and Labrador shrimp fishery, as the inshore fishery starts in June or July, and by that point in time, much of the import quota into the EU has been or is being exhausted.

What you see happening is that the fishery continues, the cooked and peeled product is produced, put in storage in waiting until January 1 of the next year, and then dumped on the market. That's how dysfunctional it is. That is why the CETA is so important to us. That is why Earle McCurdy, who is head of the Fish, Food and Allied Workers union, has come out in support of the CETA.

Another example of how this is going to have positive structural impacts on our industry is in the processed lobster. Over 85% of our processed lobster products are exported to the United States. A growing market for the processed lobster sector is lobster tails and claws. We have made good inroads into the EU with this product; however, the tariff for the product is 16%. The elimination of that 16% tariff will enable that segment of our industry to expand significantly into the EU.

The expansion of our lobster processing sector, which is primarily in New Brunswick and P.E.I., is going to have a significant positive impact on our live lobster portion, which is primarily in Nova Scotia and, to some extent, Newfoundland. It will be drawing more lobsters into the processing sector out of the live market. Our live lobster sector is being inundated with oversupply and, as you may know, prices have been dropping quite a bit.

In summary, we see the CETA offering us important opportunities for market diversification, leading to enhanced prosperity for our companies and our workers.

I will say in closing that the Fisheries Council of Canada wants to acknowledge the great work done by trade officials at International Trade Canada and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. We were kept abreast of developments. Our thoughts, suggestions, and concerns were sought and were taken into consideration.

Thank you very much.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thanks very much to both of you for your testimony. I'm sure it has spurred some great questions.

We'll start with Mr. Sandhu.

9 a.m.

NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming out today.

Mr. Dias, you pointed out that the government did not consult you guys with regard to the CETA.

Mr. McGuinness, were you consulted during the negotiations on the CETA?

9 a.m.

President, Fisheries Council of Canada

Patrick McGuinness

I was.

What you do in trade and negotiations, whether that's in the U.S., in Canada, or in NAFTA, is that basically you have to enter into a confidentiality type of agreement with the government in terms of participating. That's not participating in the negotiations themselves, but participating with regard to giving advice to them on questions they would ask, such as what are our sensitivities and our objectives. Things would come up in negotiations and would be run by me in order to get a sense of what the position of the fishing industry would be.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Dias, you have members in various sectors throughout the country. Are there any sectors in which your union members will benefit from this particular deal?

9:05 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Jerry Dias

Well, for starters, the fisheries sector will. The one thing we need to be concerned about is that more of the fish processing jobs don't leave Canada and go to Europe. If there is a concern, it's on the processing side of things.

Will it create a larger market? There is no question about it. Are there opportunities in the fishing sector? Absolutely.

But one of the problems we have in the fishing sector today is the number of fish processing plants that have closed and the fact that a lot of our fish is shipped to China for processing and then shipped back. If we want to have an integrated strategy on how a sector like this can benefit, we need to have more debate, not just about shipping fish for processing, but about actually processing the fish here and then selling a finished product.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Thank you, Mr. Dias.

Mr. McGuinness, can you comment on how the European Union was adamant on Newfoundland and Labrador giving up its minimal processing requirements?

9:05 a.m.

President, Fisheries Council of Canada

Patrick McGuinness

To a large extent, this was a good discussion with negotiators. It was really more of a symbolic issue. The bottom line is that it sets a terrible precedent for the EU in its negotiations around the world. Say, for example, they have fisheries trade agreements with Norway, Iceland, and Greenland. There is no mention of minimum processing requirements, so it was more a philosophical issue. At the end of the day, the bottom line is.... Right now, say, for example we have Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, and British Columbia. They do not have minimum processing requirements and basically trade is going back and forth in terms of, for example, the same types of species that Newfoundland and Labrador has. To a certain extent, the impact of removing those trade restrictions would be pretty negligible.

It's interesting to look at British Columbia. In British Columbia not that long ago we had a minimum processing for herring roe: herring could not be exported out of British Columbia if it had roe in place. What happened? It became uneconomical to harvest and process the small herring, so the quotas were not being caught. In fact, the minimum processing requirements that were demonstrated in B.C. were costing the industry jobs, particularly in the harvesting side. What brought it to a fundamental decision-making was that of course Alaska has herring and herring roe and they did not have the restrictions that British Columbia had. Basically, they were sending the small herring—which was uneconomical to process in North America or in Alaska—to South Korea and then South Korea would be processing and the herring roe would go to Japan.

At the same time, the Alaskans were developing a food market for that small herring in Africa. When you step back, there was a case study whereby it was a restriction that was actually a negative impact in terms of the B.C. industry. When the B.C. exporters of herring roe would meet with the Japanese buyers they were at a disadvantage with the Alaskans because the Alaskans could offer the Japanese buyers not only herring roe but also food herring.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Would you agree that, with this restriction not being there for Newfoundland and Labrador, more processing jobs will go to Europe?

9:10 a.m.

President, Fisheries Council of Canada

Patrick McGuinness

No, basically what's going to happen is a major trade-off. Say, for example, in cooked and peeled shrimp, in order to get into the European Union right now it has to be further processed. It is brined and put in jars and processed into sandwiches for Marks & Spencer. Now, with the removal of that type of restriction there could be further processing of that cooked and peeled shrimp right here in Canada, moving into modified packaging. You have to take a global look at these types of issues. What you'll probably see with cooked and peeled shrimp is an opportunity—those plants right now are relatively new plants, they are modern plants—for them to move into for example, modified atmosphere packaging and delivering that product direct to retail, direct to restaurants. In terms of impact, the province that's probably going to win the most is Newfoundland and Labrador. It will help them to restructure that industry.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. O'Toole.

You have seven minutes.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for appearing today. We appreciate your taking the time to provide your comments.

I have a few questions for Mr. Dias. Congratulations on assuming the presidency of Unifor in September. We appreciate your taking the time.

I do have to be frank, though. Your comments with respect to the deal could almost be taken right out of Mr. Davies' comments in the House of Commons, which is that the deal could be a good thing but then there are a lot of negatives about it and we need to see the full text before we can decide.

There have been two tranches of information released, which are points by industry and then the final negotiated text. In the context of collective bargaining, when your team is holed up at a hotel and at it for days on end, when you strike an agreement on central terms and a general timeline of the agreement, don't you let the final legal text be negotiated afterward?

9:10 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Jerry Dias

No. When we bargain a collective agreement, the deal is the deal. We don't come to a tentative agreement on some issues, ratify, and then go back to the bargaining table to tighten up the loose ends. The deal is the deal.

The idea of deadline bargaining, for the purpose of the discussion, is that there is a drop-dead date to deal with all of the issues. The collective bargaining, depending on the amount of issues to be bargained, will start well in advance to make sure there's adequate time to deal with all of the issues. But at the end of the day, when we ratify a deal, it is the complete deal. We make sure that our members understand what's in the deal—all of the elements of it. In essence we're having a discussion on an agreement where we haven't seen the final text, which begs the question, "What are we missing?"

What we are giving is a presentation based on what we understand is entailed in the agreement. It's difficult to make a concrete and a comprehensive statement on the CETA when we haven't seen the finished product.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

But with each tariff level addressed and the timelines for phasing in, aren't those the essential terms?

My friend Mr. Davies talks a lot about how those essential terms are fine but that we have to see the final legal text in various languages.

Aren't the essential terms, the actual tariff rate reductions and timelines, really what a deal is about?

9:10 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Jerry Dias

There's more to it than just that. It's more than just tariffs. There are parts of the CETA that, frankly, deal with provincial government's right to procurement, with whether or not European companies can sue governments in Canada. It will likely raise the prices for generic drugs. Heaven only knows that drug prices are an increasing cost to Canadian business. This doesn't help that situation.

You may have put out the basic outline of what's involved, but there's much more to it than what we're talking about today. The question becomes, what else is there? Why should we not be able to see the final text, and why should Canadians not be able to see it?

The argument is always one of transparency. I find that terminology to be spectacular. It will talk about transparency as it relates to the trade union movement, yet with something as significant as this that affects all Canadians, there's not complete transparency.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

In your remarks, you stated that after the CETA, Canada would be lucky to export 10,000 vehicles to Europe.

Do you recognize that we exported over 10,000 in 2012?

9:15 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Jerry Dias

That would be about dead on. We're not even sure. I don't even think there are completely clear numbers as to how many we have exported.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

Wouldn't it be fair to say that if we're already at 10,000 now, using 10,000 as the assessment post-CETA would be totally inaccurate?

9:15 a.m.

Angelo DiCaro National Representative, Research Department, Unifor

That's actually a good question.

There have been a couple of numbers floated about the number of exports of finished vehicles to the European Union. There was one number of 13,000; another number was 8,000. Neither of those numbers has been validated. We don't know where these numbers come from. Both have been in news reports and in various government communiqués. One of the things we would like to see is an actual accounting of that, because surely that exists somewhere. With industry support and involvement, perhaps we would actually get an itemized breakdown of what the exports are.

In a paper that's going to be released, probably next week, we took existing strategists' data from Industry Canada. We looked at the value of trade, and then our best-guess estimates about the number of vehicles based on analysis by Ward's Automotive Group, which is a fairly reputable and leading statistical group. On the crude division of the number of units versus the value of trade, it doesn't add up to 13,000. That means we would be selling cars for around $9,000 in Europe, which is clearly not true for any cars we sell there.

We're not making pronouncements. Our best guess, as with the other best guesses we're hearing, is that it's about 5,000. We have our own methodology for that. Knowing it would be better but, clearly, given the level of imbalances we're seeing in the trade, to say that we would go from 5,000, or even 10,000, to 100,000 is simply not possible.

9:15 a.m.

National President, Unifor

Jerry Dias

Let me use your argument. Let's say you're right and suppose that the number is 15,000 that is being exported today. Let's even use a number we know to be high. The reality is that if you understand and know our industry, we are not going to be selling more cars. The issue isn't tariffs.

Whether or not there is a 20% tariff or a 0% tariff on the auto industry, it won't make any significant difference and it's pretty simple why that is. In Canada we build, in the Chrysler assembly plant: Chargers, 300s, and Barracudas. The Barracuda may be considered a niche vehicle. In Windsor we build minivans. In Ingersoll we build Equinox and Terrains. In Oshawa, for the time being, we build Camaros, but we build Impalas.

To cut a long story short, we build—