International Trade Committee on Sept. 25th, 2024

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Can you estimate how many transactions per month will be going through CARM?

[Mike Leahy]

On a monthly basis, we're looking at.... Annually, we're looking at 30 million entries. The breakdown by month or by minute should.... It will flow based on the month, but I don't have an exact number, as you can tell. I'll get you one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I need some direction from the committee.

It's a quarter to six. In the waiting room we have the Canadian Association of Importers and Exporters, the Customs and Immigration Union, Federal Express and UPS Canada. We would have 45 minutes with these witnesses.

I was trying to do another round so that the Bloc would have two minutes and Mr. Cannings would have two minutes, but that's going to take us up to five minutes to six.

Is it best that we let these witnesses go and that we bring in our other witnesses who are waiting?

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

If possible, I would like to take the floor for two minutes. It would be brief.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

It's going to cut into our time for the other....

Mr. Cannings says he's fine.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I'm asking. If the committee would prefer to move on, I'm fine with that, but I would love to have the floor, if possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Okay, go ahead quickly.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Gallivan, we didn't have time to hear your remarks, but we do have your speaking notes, where it says that you've tested over 115 trade chain partners. It says that since May 2024 you've performed 333 test cases. We would like to have more details on that. Is there a report we can look at?

Honestly, I don't know if there's any point in—

Do you mind, Conservative Party folks?

They're not interested in this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Can we just be quiet for Mr. Savard-Tremblay?

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Gallivan, we asked you for documents in April. You told us that they could be sent within 20 days of the meeting, if I remember correctly. However, it has been months, and we have still not received everything.

Now you're telling us that we could prioritize documents. I don't know how many thousands of people work at the agency. If I ask you for something, will we really get documents in a timely manner this time?

[Ted Gallivan]

Madam Chair, as I mentioned, all of our responses to requests from this committee included a field that I had inserted personally so that you could add the priority documents that you wanted to receive first.

I will take note of the member's request, and we will process those documents as a priority.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

This committee passed a motion asking for a particular set of documents. You had confirmed to us that we could receive them within 20 days of the meeting, but we haven't seen anything yet.

[Ted Gallivan]

In order to respond to that request, we have to provide you with 37,000 documents. I can confirm that all of these documents are at the translation stage. That's where the stumbling block is.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

When did you send them?

[Ted Gallivan]

I don't have the details in front of me. I can assure you that we would like to provide you with all the documents requested and that we can do so in order of priority. However, translation is necessary to comply with the Official Languages Act.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much to the witnesses.

We will suspend while we quickly bring the other witnesses in.

Thank you very much for appearing today. You have our apologies for the lateness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I call the meeting back to order.

Thank you very much. I apologize for the delay.

The committee is anxious to start asking you questions immediately, so if you don't mind, we will forgo your written comments. I understand that we have them. They'll be distributed in both official languages to the committee following today's testimony.

We're on to Mr. Baldinelli, please.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I'll go to Ms. Campbell first.

On April 8, 2024, a written brief signed by 22 trade chain partners was submitted to the committee. It highlighted concerns about inadequate certification, accuracy and single source of truth, the lack of a transition plan, the lack of final policy or regulatory detail, and customs self-assessment degrading benefits and functionality.

Have these concerns been addressed by CBSA to your satisfaction and to that of the trade chain partners that you represent?

[Kim Campbell, Past Chair, Canadian Association of Importers and Exporters]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I can easily just say no. CBSA has actually not consulted with trade since March 27, 2024. All of the outstanding issues that we have brought forward during that time remain.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Last March, CBSA testified that it has a rollback plan and layers of contingency plans.

However, your brief communicated that “Team CBSA has confirmed a rollback is not possible”.

This is a stark contradiction. Has CBSA addressed this concern?

I mean, once that blackout period starts, we're into it.

[Kim Campbell]

We're into it, yes.

We can tell you that we have actually not received a contingency plan. We were also distressed to see that, because that was in the minister's comments that were provided to the committee last week. We're still waiting for the contingency plan.

We have been given some notification about what is going to happen during the cutover period. I think it's really important to point out that it's a 17-day blackout. We're in the year 2024. I've never heard of a system being blacked out for 17 days.

We do have some details around the blackout itself, but the standing up is still not clear.

I will say, they did advise us on the Friday that just passed that there will be a conversation with trade on Friday to ask questions about that, but we have not been given the chance to do so yet.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Weber, the union you represent submitted a scathing—to say the least—report to the committee concerning an overview of CARM concerns from the front line. It was dated April 18, 2024. The brief references a lack of consultation, a lack of training, health and safety concerns and design flaws about CARM, and says it was not designed with CBSA in mind; it also references a lot of general concerns.

How does the union representing CBSA workers on the front line today feel about CARM?

[Mark Weber, National President, Customs and Immigration Union]

Confused and worried would best describe the atmosphere amongst our membership. They have received very little training, just basic PowerPoint presentations; they have had no ability to test the system or use the system. The interface that our members see, as opposed to what travellers see, is different, and we'll be at the border expecting to help travellers while not really knowing what it is they are supposed to do.

In terms of the concerns and such that we raised, we received an answer yesterday at 4:46 p.m. to all the questions we sent back in May, and we have not had any consultation in between whatsoever.

Presumably, they found out we were testifying here, so they thought they would take away my ability to say that there has been no consultation. That was well played, but really there has been no consultation.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Would you agree that they are going to default to using Deloitte staff to assist with any concerns that are raised, instead of using CBSA officials, union workers and staff who should be trained, but have not been, to operate this system?

[Mark Weber]

The concern goes deeper than that. I really believe this should have been developed in-house. I think the expertise is there. I think you needed to talk to the people who use it every day. Those frontline officers have not been consulted at all.

It is, again, like we saw with ArriveCAN and like we have seen with other apps and ideas that CBSA has had. The people who use it are not consulted and don't have any involvement in the development whatsoever.