International Trade Committee on Nov. 27th, 2024

[Ian Dunn]

I know that facility in your riding very well. They are a member of ours.

Earlier, I mentioned the need to attract investment into these facilities. I think that's a really important key message to leave.

In terms of impacts to employment, I mentioned earlier that, since the early 2000s, employment in the forest industry in Ontario has fallen by half, from 80,000 direct jobs to 40,000 direct jobs currently. That's due to a combination of a number of economic factors. We've seen curtailments, rationalizations, consolidation and the industry going to the U.S., Uruguay, Paraguay, Brazil and Indonesia, and not coming to Canada. I think the focus on competitiveness is incredibly important.

On the softwood lumber piece, if the duties are 25% on all forest products, that's another discussion. The softwood lumber duties, in combination with all of these other economic factors, have led to significant declines in employment in Ontario.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

To that point, we know the famous announcement this week from President-elect Trump that there will be 25% further tariffs on all goods in Canada.

What will that mean to those 40,000 jobs in Ontario?

[Ian Dunn]

We have 137,000 direct, indirect and induced jobs. That's the number we like to use.

I don't like to use Twitter or Truth Social as a litmus test for trade between our two countries, but if that does happen and that threat is serious, it will have far-reaching and devastating impacts on those jobs.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

One of the things I really love about the forest sector is that they plant trees. The forest sector in Canada plants 400-plus million trees a year. This government made an announcement about planting a couple of billion trees, and it hasn't even touched that.

How important is it for the future of this industry to grow, and not to see a decrease? What does that mean for workers, jobs and paycheques in terms of having this industry grow and not be diminished?

[Ian Dunn]

It is essential. We harvest 13.5 million cubic metres of timber in the province per year. The annual allowable cut is 28 million cubic metres. With that 13.5 million cubic metres, we employ 137,000 workers. If we could raise the harvest, we could encourage these investments and bring in new capacity online in Ontario. The benefits to northern, rural and indigenous communities in Ontario would be tremendous. There are all kinds of opportunities.

Finland is a really interesting case study in what you can do with a forest sector and an advanced bioeconomy. They're a country a third of the size of Ontario, and they harvest 80 million cubic metres per year. They grow 120 million cubic metres per year; we grow about 40 million. It's not that 28 million cubic metres is a ceiling; we can grow more trees. We can grow trees faster in Canada.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

My last question will be—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 11 seconds.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

On a scale of one to 10, how important is it to have a prime minister who will stand up to end the softwood lumber tariffs and stand up for Ontario forest workers?

[Ian Dunn]

It's very important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We're moving on to Mr. Sheehan.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll be sharing my time with Chandra.

I wanted to make a statement picking up on what the NDP member said, that this issue has been going on for quite some time and the Conservatives are acting like Harper saved a bunch of jobs. From my personal experience in my backyard, St. Marys Paper was closed when Stephen Harper was Prime Minister. White River was shuttered.

When a sawmill closes.... I was a city councillor and I also worked for the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities, and we used to have these things called labour adjustment community adjustments. The people who led that would make the point that when someone loses their job in small-town Canada—say, at a sawmill that closed while Harper was Prime Minister the two times, in 2007 and 2011—not only do they lose their job, but they lose the equity in their homes, because that is, a lot of times, the proverbial one-horse industry, and when that closes, people also lose the equity. In a large city, it's still terrible when workers lose their jobs, but they can drive to another area easily, whereas someone in White River, which is between Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, can't just drive down the street and pick up another job.

Can you comment on the effects of these job losses throughout the 30-year period, in particular on small-town Canada?

[Jeff Bromley]

I can go first if you like.

[Ian Dunn]

Go ahead.

[Jeff Bromley]

I can comment personally. I saw Canal Flats, British Columbia, just a little bit north of where I live in the East Kootenays in southeastern British Columbia, lose its mill in 2015. It closed 180 direct jobs in the small community of Canal Flats, out of about 1,000 people who lived there. It's the proverbial one-horse town. There was one industry, and it closed. Those friends and family members had to either pick up and move, which is difficult, as you mentioned, or stay and keep their home there, and then they had to commute. They had to commute north to the mines, hours away, and then they were away from their loved ones. They were working one week in and one week out, or two weeks in and two weeks out.

That eliminates your hockey coaches. It eliminates your community supports. The tax base for the actual community is devastated. The effects are far-reaching. I think sometimes they're not measured by the human impact, especially on families and folks, when folks have to then travel to work instead of being home in their own beds every night.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much for that. That's very insightful.

I'll give the rest of my time to Chandra.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Dunn, it was was quite refreshing to listen to you.

In the history of this lumber dispute, did you mention 1794?

[Ian Dunn]

Yes, it goes back to 1794.

[Chandra Arya, Liberal, Nepean, ON]

This has been going on.

Why has the domestic industry not looked at markets elsewhere, as Finland has done?

[Ian Dunn]

Across Canada, the industry is certainly looking at other markets, and it does ship to other markets. For Ontario, it's an issue of geography; it's not easily accessible by port, so it is a challenge.

Our industry exports about $8 billion of forestry goods every year, and 97% of that goes to the United States. I know some of our members have clients in Asian countries, but it's a very small amount and a very small dollar amount.

There are opportunities to increase consumption domestically. We've talked about mass timber. There are really exciting developments in the energy space and biomaterial space, but you are never going to replace the impact of the American market for softwood lumber.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to our witnesses. We very much appreciate the information.

We will suspend for a moment while our other panel comes on.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I call the meeting back to order.

For the remaining time, we have with us the Quebec Forest Industry Council and—

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Madam Chair, before we continue, could I make a comment?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes, go ahead.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

During the first part of the meeting, my colleague asked a witness a question in French, and he then asked her to repeat it to him in English. We should never have this said to us. For this hour, there are no witnesses pesent in person, but I still think it is important to very clearly remind people attending the meeting in person to always wear their earpiece, because getting an answer like that can be very frustrating.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I have a point of order on the same point.